Insomniac

[K1]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: K1 at 03 May 2000 10:06:15:
Would the author of Insomniac consider a public release (winboard version) of the program? Some already has it, some don't. It's a win-win situation to make your program well known and to establish some good rapport now, before eventually going commercial.

[Dann Corbit]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dann Corbit at 03 May 2000 10:16:23:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Insomniac geschrieben von: / posted by: K1 at 03 May 2000 10:06:15:

Would the author of Insomniac consider a public release (winboard version) of the program? Some already has it, some don't. It's a win-win situation to make your program well known and to establish some good rapport now, before eventually going commercial.

It's a personal decision for the author and we should not begrudge them either way.
There are a large number of limbo programs I would like to get my hands on, Ferret most of all. However, I have forever despaired of that one.
The current version of LambChop would be a treat. PostModernist plays wonderful chess. The list goes on and on.


my FTP site

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 May 2000 10:20:04:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Insomniac geschrieben von: / posted by: K1 at 03 May 2000 10:06:15:

Would the author of Insomniac consider a public release (winboard version) of the program? Some already has it, some don't. It's a win-win situation to make your program well known and to establish some good rapport now, before eventually going commercial.

I used to be a tester and the newest version I've got is 0.53, which is a fine program. Since it's an older version and I haven't received any mails from the author in a long time, I would be happy to send the version to anyone who would want it. I don't know if it's immoral or not, but that is my position. It would be nice with a public version though.
Sincerely,
Mogens

[Dann Corbit]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dann Corbit at 03 May 2000 10:35:37:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Insomniac geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 May 2000 10:20:04:

Would the author of Insomniac consider a public release (winboard version) of the program? Some already has it, some don't. It's a win-win situation to make your program well known and to establish some good rapport now, before eventually going commercial.

I used to be a tester and the newest version I've got is 0.53, which is a fine program. Since it's an older version and I haven't received any mails from the author in a long time, I would be happy to send the version to anyone who would want it. I don't know if it's immoral or not, but that is my position. It would be nice with a public version though.

I disagree that you should do this without the author's permission.
When you agree to Beta Test a product, you are given a special trust.
You receive a special advantage in return for something -- your agreement to obey the wishes of the author.
If anything, giving away these versions will accomplish the following:
1. Make other authors reluctant to trust other beta testers
2. Make authors angry and try to retaliate -- perhaps by keeping improvements away from us
3. Increase the distrust between opposite parties in computer science and computer chess in general.
In short, I think it would be a very bad thing for you to release it, despite the fact that I am sure I would enjoy to have the program. However, I would never want it without the author's explicit permission.
In my view, it is very similar to piracy. I know that there are large cultural differences about this sort of thing. But I do want you to know my stance on it.



my FTP site

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 May 2000 10:54:05:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Insomniac geschrieben von: / posted by: Dann Corbit at 03 May 2000 10:35:37:

I disagree that you should do this without the author's permission.
When you agree to Beta Test a product, you are given a special trust.
You receive a special advantage in return for something -- your agreement to obey the wishes of the author.
If anything, giving away these versions will accomplish the following:
1. Make other authors reluctant to trust other beta testers
2. Make authors angry and try to retaliate -- perhaps by keeping improvements away from us
3. Increase the distrust between opposite parties in computer science and computer chess in general.
In short, I think it would be a very bad thing for you to release it, despite the fact that I am sure I would enjoy to have the program. However, I would never want it without the author's explicit permission.
In my view, it is very similar to piracy. I know that there are large cultural differences about this sort of thing. But I do want you to know my stance on it.

Thank you and for most part I agree with your opinion. But the author tester relationship goes both ways I think. I find it rude and unpleasant not to be informed if my services are no longer required, especially since the author is reluctant to answer e-mails. I will mail the author and ask for permission, but I will also interpret the abscence of an answer as yes.
Sincerely,
Mogens

[Aaron]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Aaron at 03 May 2000 11:40:27:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Insomniac geschrieben von: / posted by: Dann Corbit at 03 May 2000 10:16:23:

Would the author of Insomniac consider a public release (winboard version) of the program? Some already has it, some don't. It's a win-win situation to make your program well known and to establish some good rapport now, before eventually going commercial.

It's a personal decision for the author and we should not begrudge them either way.
There are a large number of limbo programs I would like to get my hands on, >Ferret most of all. However, I have forever despaired of that one.
The current version of LambChop would be a treat. PostModernist plays >wonderful chess. The list goes on and on.

Yes..like most of the unreleased programs on what they call the "green list?"

[Gabor Szots]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Gabor Szots at 03 May 2000 12:19:16:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Insomniac geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 May 2000 10:54:05:

I disagree that you should do this without the author's permission.
When you agree to Beta Test a product, you are given a special trust.
You receive a special advantage in return for something -- your agreement to obey the wishes of the author.
If anything, giving away these versions will accomplish the following:
1. Make other authors reluctant to trust other beta testers
2. Make authors angry and try to retaliate -- perhaps by keeping improvements away from us
3. Increase the distrust between opposite parties in computer science and computer chess in general.
In short, I think it would be a very bad thing for you to release it, despite the fact that I am sure I would enjoy to have the program. However, I would never want it without the author's explicit permission.
In my view, it is very similar to piracy. I know that there are large cultural differences about this sort of thing. But I do want you to know my stance on it.

Thank you and for most part I agree with your opinion. But the author tester relationship goes both ways I think. I find it rude and unpleasant not to be informed if my services are no longer required, especially since the author is reluctant to answer e-mails. I will mail the author and ask for permission, but I will also interpret the abscence of an answer as yes.
Sincerely,
Mogens

About a half year ago I sent an email to James Robertson asking for his program. He replied he'd keep it private.
On the other hand, asking again cannot hurt. But I'm afraid you can't regard silence as yes. Well, I'm sure he will answer.
Best wishes,
Gábor

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 May 2000 12:51:43:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Insomniac geschrieben von: / posted by: Gabor Szots at 03 May 2000 12:19:16:

About a half year ago I sent an email to James Robertson asking for his program. He replied he'd keep it private.
On the other hand, asking again cannot hurt. But I'm afraid you can't regard silence as yes. Well, I'm sure he will answer.
Best wishes,

No, you're right. I can't interpret silence as yes, but I'm going to mailbomb him until he answers ;o). I must admit that Insomniac is an open wound in my case. I spent hours analyzing Insomniac games and telling him how to find games for his opening book, and suddenly nothing. Therefore I'm not entirely objective regarding this subject, so you'll have to forgive my rash statements. I should have kept my mouth closed and mailed him instead. Well, done is done.
Sincerely,
Mogens

[Dann Corbit]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dann Corbit at 03 May 2000 21:31:35:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Insomniac geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 May 2000 12:51:43:

About a half year ago I sent an email to James Robertson asking for his program. He replied he'd keep it private.
On the other hand, asking again cannot hurt. But I'm afraid you can't regard silence as yes. Well, I'm sure he will answer.
Best wishes,

No, you're right. I can't interpret silence as yes, but I'm going to mailbomb him until he answers ;o). I must admit that Insomniac is an open wound in my case. I spent hours analyzing Insomniac games and telling him how to find games for his opening book, and suddenly nothing. Therefore I'm not entirely objective regarding this subject, so you'll have to forgive my rash statements. I should have kept my mouth closed and mailed him instead. Well, done is done.

Now I see that you were hot under the collar. All of us get that way sometimes. Eventually, I think that everything will work out for the best. I also suspect that those engines which do become public will improve the fastest for a large number of reasons, including:
1. Huge number of free testers
2. Publicity will cause a focus on the object bringing attention
3. For those programs with source code available, you also have thousands of code reviewers, thousands of debugging helpers etc.
So, in the long run, if you only give your program to a couple people, it is to your disadvantage rather than to your advantage.
IMO-YMMV.


My FTP site

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 May 2000 21:43:54:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Insomniac geschrieben von: / posted by: Dann Corbit at 03 May 2000 21:31:35:

Now I see that you were hot under the collar. All of us get that way sometimes.

Yes, that is true. However, my ability to control my temper is getting better day by day ).
I received an e-mail from James regarding my request. He's not especially keen on spreading the program due to an ambition about participating in some of the big computer chess tournaments. Apparently he thinks that a lot of tournaments with bad results for Insomniac, will hurt his possibilities. I don't know if that's true, but I'll respect his wishes.
Sincerely,
Mogens

[Dann Corbit]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dann Corbit at 03 May 2000 21:59:08:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Insomniac geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 May 2000 21:43:54:

Now I see that you were hot under the collar. All of us get that way sometimes.

Yes, that is true. However, my ability to control my temper is getting better day by day ).
I received an e-mail from James regarding my request. He's not especially keen on spreading the program due to an ambition about participating in some of the big computer chess tournaments. Apparently he thinks that a lot of tournaments with bad results for Insomniac, will hurt his possibilities. I don't know if that's true, but I'll respect his wishes.

Hmmm...
That's an odd approach.
Suppose he really does get slapped around. Then:
1. He will have the data to know where his program is weak. If he can repair it, he will do much better. If he can't repair it, he will get bruised at the tournaments anyway.
2. Why pay a big wad of cash to fly somewhere and stay in a hotel, only to get bonked on the head? For my part, I want to think that I can actually win if I take place in any sort of contest.
In any case, I think that isolation is a very big mistake.


My FTP site

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 May 2000 22:23:28:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Insomniac geschrieben von: / posted by: Dann Corbit at 03 May 2000 21:59:08:

Hmmm...
That's an odd approach.
Suppose he really does get slapped around. Then:
1. He will have the data to know where his program is weak. If he can repair it, he will do much better. If he can't repair it, he will get bruised at the tournaments anyway.
2. Why pay a big wad of cash to fly somewhere and stay in a hotel, only to get bonked on the head? For my part, I want to think that I can actually win if I take place in any sort of contest.
In any case, I think that isolation is a very big mistake.

It's not complete isolation, there is a couple of testers of the Insomniac program. But I don't understand why releasing version 0.53 is a problem, when the current version is 0.63 and presumably completely different. It's a comparatively new program, so change happens fast. Well, in the last couple of days or so I've seen a lot of bad reasoning, so I shouldn't be surprised.
Sincerely,
Mogens

[K1]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: K1 at 04 May 2000 04:08:36:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Insomniac geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 May 2000 22:23:28:
Thanks Mogens for checking it out with James, even though his answer is not positive.
In my case I tested JRCP 0.4 and then 0.41b for him and sent him the log files at that time. He stopped giving me updates after 0.41b.
I accept it that he could be looking toward commercialisation which is a totally valid aspiration.
I was a little surprised that Insomniac did not become a chessbase native engine in the new Chessbase Young Talents.
Regards.

Hmmm...
That's an odd approach.
Suppose he really does get slapped around. Then:
1. He will have the data to know where his program is weak. If he can repair it, he will do much better. If he can't repair it, he will get bruised at the tournaments anyway.
2. Why pay a big wad of cash to fly somewhere and stay in a hotel, only to get bonked on the head? For my part, I want to think that I can actually win if I take place in any sort of contest.
In any case, I think that isolation is a very big mistake.

It's not complete isolation, there is a couple of testers of the Insomniac program. But I don't understand why releasing version 0.53 is a problem, when the current version is 0.63 and presumably completely different. It's a comparatively new program, so change happens fast. Well, in the last couple of days or so I've seen a lot of bad reasoning, so I shouldn't be surprised.
Sincerely,
Mogens

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 04 May 2000 09:57:40:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Insomniac geschrieben von: / posted by: K1 at 04 May 2000 04:08:36:

Thanks Mogens for checking it out with James, even though his answer is not positive.
In my case I tested JRCP 0.4 and then 0.41b for him and sent him the log files at that time. He stopped giving me updates after 0.41b.
I accept it that he could be looking toward commercialisation which is a totally valid aspiration.
I was a little surprised that Insomniac did not become a chessbase native engine in the new Chessbase Young Talents.
Regards.

This raises another question. Is it immoral to swap versions between testers? Any input is appreciated.
Best wishes...
Mogens

[Aaron]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Aaron at 04 May 2000 11:05:14:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Insomniac geschrieben von: / posted by: Dann Corbit at 03 May 2000 21:31:35:

I also suspect that those engines which do become public will improve the >fastest for a large number of reasons, including:
1. Huge number of free testers
2. Publicity will cause a focus on the object bringing attention
3. For those programs with source code available, you also have thousands of >code reviewers, thousands of debugging helpers etc.
So, in the long run, if you only give your program to a couple people, it is >to your disadvantage rather than to your advantage.

It that really true? Sometimes I really wonder if it's a better strategy to keep the testing semi-closed..The thing is only a few testers like you are dedicated enough to help test the program, look for bugs ,point out weakness etc, the rest of us at best run a few tournaments( if even that)'

Also I remember some people on ICC talking about thousands of hours spent on user support ,even though they are not obligated to do so..

Your point 2 is also not too strong i think.. The well known yet unpublicly available program will attract even more attention due to the "mystery"..
Witness Ferret and other less available stuff..Leaving aside Ferret they are probably weaker than crafty but still because crafty is publicity availabel and for FREE, crafty might be a little underestimated ..People always want what they can't have..
Also, a unknown program means that others cannot prepare against it while you can prepare against them!! Espically strong point when playing against Humans..
A closed test group allows the advantage of both, since you can be sure only the most dedicated people will be working on your program, and you don't waste time having to answer dumb questions from newbies and your program can still maintain the element of surprise when playing against others..


Well programmers who have released their engines are probably more qualified to answer this..Has releasing your program publicly helped more or hindered your work?

[Aaron]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Aaron at 04 May 2000 11:13:19:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Insomniac geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 04 May 2000 09:57:40:

This raises another question. Is it immoral to swap versions between testers?
Any input is appreciated.
Best wishes...
Mogens

I don't think it should be allowed...Still Presumably you are talking about the same program, why would one tester with a newer version one to trade for a older one? except for historical interest of course..

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 04 May 2000 12:00:50:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Insomniac geschrieben von: / posted by: Aaron at 04 May 2000 11:13:19:

This raises another question. Is it immoral to swap versions between testers?

I don't think it should be allowed...Still Presumably you are talking about the same program, why would one tester with a newer version one to trade for a older one? except for historical interest of course..

Yes, I'm talking about the same program. If two testers both test program x, but have different versions, why shouldn't they be allowed to swap? The reason why doesn't matter IMO. I assume that none of the testers have been officially discarded by the author of course.
Best wishes...
Mogens

[pete]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: pete at 04 May 2000 14:14:24:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Insomniac geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 04 May 2000 12:00:50:

This raises another question. Is it immoral to swap versions between testers?

I don't think it should be allowed...Still Presumably you are talking about the same program, why would one tester with a newer version one to trade for a older one? except for historical interest of course..

Yes, I'm talking about the same program. If two testers both test program x, but have different versions, why shouldn't they be allowed to swap? The reason why doesn't matter IMO. I assume that none of the testers have been officially discarded by the author of course.
Best wishes...
Mogens

I think if you have been given a special test version by a program author not offered for the public he decided to give it to _you_ and you shouldn't give it to anyone else without explicit agreement by the author .
If the author decides not to give newer versions to you , so what ? It is _his_ program and if he wants to have it only for himself or wants to give it to people whose name start with "Y" that's only up to him .
In fact I don't understand why everyone is so upset about programs that are not public ; aren't there already enough great public ones ?
It seems to me a program author giving his beta-versions to testers will have to decide if the results are valuable for him or not : might hurt if he finds out your results are not valuable for him at the moment , but I can imagine multiple other much more harmless reasons too .
Only my humble opinion for sure as usual ...
pete

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 04 May 2000 15:29:30:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Insomniac geschrieben von: / posted by: pete at 04 May 2000 14:14:24:

I think if you have been given a special test version by a program author not offered for the public he decided to give it to _you_ and you shouldn't give it to anyone else without explicit agreement by the author .
If the author decides not to give newer versions to you , so what ? It is _his_ program and if he wants to have it only for himself or wants to give it to people whose name start with "Y" that's only up to him .
In fact I don't understand why everyone is so upset about programs that are not public ; aren't there already enough great public ones ?
It seems to me a program author giving his beta-versions to testers will have to decide if the results are valuable for him or not : might hurt if he finds out your results are not valuable for him at the moment , but I can imagine multiple other much more harmless reasons too .
Only my humble opinion for sure as usual ...

Absolutely, there isn't time enough to try all programs as extensively as you would want.
So can I, but it is the lack of information I resent. I _might_ get a newer version from James in a month or so. But it would be nice to receive some information i the nine months in between versions.
Much appreciated.
Best wishes...
Mogens

[A8A]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: A8A at 04 May 2000 20:06:46:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Insomniac geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 03 May 2000 10:20:04:
This is my personal opinion about the Topic.
When you decide to be a Beta Tester of some program, you would have to be respectful of the Author desires.
Actually, I am evaluating Zchess1.51b. Only with this program, I have spent hundreds of hours, studying his book of openings, as much his positional and tactical game, how it solves the strategic tasks, the handling of the transition of the midle game into the end game, how it values the pawn structures, etc., etc...
Several weeks ago, I published a Message in this Forum with my first impressions about Zchess1.51b. Nevertheless, I had guaranteed to the Zchess author that the results would be sent directly to him. In fact, after this report, I have never returned to publish some report, unless the Author indicates me.
We must remember that the program is intellectual property of the author until he indicates the opposite.
I feel it is a lucky gift, that we have about fifty free programs. I am sure that these free programs have taken several years to be developed by their authors. We also do many interesting Tests like Dann Corbits does.
The first program, that I reviewed, was Crux and I must accept that my work could have been more extensive. Later, I was interested in Zchess because I like its game style. Wrongly, I supposed that I would have the enough time to evaluate LGoliath2000v2.6 too. The result was that I did not have the enough time for LGoliath, since I dedicated the total time to Zchess. In the same say, it happened to me with Zephyr. Today I feel a great pain with the authors of LGoliath and Zephyr.
A single program for me has been more than sufficient. I have a full time job and I am finishing my Master too. All in this Forum we have many responsibilities. The Hobby to evaluate programs is admirable, but it is certainly very hard if we do it with the required rigor.
Quite often, the Authors do not respond in the time we waited for the Beta Testers, but we must remember that they also have personal responsibilities. Of course, we, the Beta Testers, must request some feedback to the Authors about our results on their programs. Thus, we can be sure that we are going on the right way about the wanted evaluations of the Authors.
Finally, if the author of Insomniac does not want to release new Versions freely, we must respect its position is either logical or no for us. It is the same situation when the musical composers discover the illicit distribution of their songs through Internet: Its property is being released without their consent and authorization. It is the same thing for the chess programs.
Best Regards for all Winboarders.