Battle of the Crowns -- viewpoint question

[Dann Corbit]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dann Corbit at 15 June 2000 23:39:57:
Since Gromit has undergone a major rewrite going from version 2 to version 3,
and GnuChess has undergone a major rewrite going from version 4 to version 5,
I have a question to the WinBoard community:
Should more than one version of an engine be allowed to enter?
I was not planning to allow multiple entries for versions other than these, but I am now wondering if my decision to allow these particular multiple versions is unfair.
What do you (the major WinBoard fan club persons) think ought to be done?
Allow only a single version for each program?
Allow multiple versions for other programs?
Or ???


My FTP site

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 16 June 2000 00:32:54:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Battle of the Crowns -- viewpoint question geschrieben von: / posted by: Dann Corbit at 15 June 2000 23:39:57:

Since Gromit has undergone a major rewrite going from version 2 to version 3,
and GnuChess has undergone a major rewrite going from version 4 to version 5,
I have a question to the WinBoard community:
Should more than one version of an engine be allowed to enter?
I was not planning to allow multiple entries for versions other than these, but I am now wondering if my decision to allow these particular multiple versions is unfair.
What do you (the major WinBoard fan club persons) think ought to be done?
Allow only a single version for each program?
Allow multiple versions for other programs?
Or ???

In my opinion only the newest version of a certain program should participate. Because what would constitute a major rewrite? Should old versions of Crafty or Comet be allowed to join? To avoid dealing with questions like that I would suggest using one version of each program. But it's only my opinion.
Best wishes...
Mogens

[Jon Dart]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Jon Dart at 16 June 2000 02:35:20:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Battle of the Crowns -- viewpoint question geschrieben von: / posted by: Dann Corbit at 15 June 2000 23:39:57:
GnuChess 5 and Gnuchess 4 are completely different programs, with
very different strenghs and weaknesses, so IMO it is quite
appropriate to include both. Gnu 4 is one of the early freeware
programs and is still reasonably strong so including it is of
interest.
I am less sure about Gromit 2 and Gromit 3.
--Jon

Since Gromit has undergone a major rewrite going from version 2 to version 3,
and GnuChess has undergone a major rewrite going from version 4 to version 5,
I have a question to the WinBoard community:
Should more than one version of an engine be allowed to enter?
I was not planning to allow multiple entries for versions other than these, but I am now wondering if my decision to allow these particular multiple versions is unfair.
What do you (the major WinBoard fan club persons) think ought to be done?
Allow only a single version for each program?
Allow multiple versions for other programs?
Or ???

[Dann Corbit]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dann Corbit at 16 June 2000 03:10:57:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Battle of the Crowns -- viewpoint question geschrieben von: / posted by: Jon Dart at 16 June 2000 02:35:20:

GnuChess 5 and Gnuchess 4 are completely different programs, with
very different strenghs and weaknesses, so IMO it is quite
appropriate to include both. Gnu 4 is one of the early freeware
programs and is still reasonably strong so including it is of
interest.
I am less sure about Gromit 2 and Gromit 3.

I think I will go with this. The Gromit 2 project has been abandoned, and if I did include that version, I suppose I really should include every version from every author and that would be a bit many.

However, I am going to keep GnuChess4 and GnuChess5 in the tournament for two reasons:
1. What you said
2. They are the engines that come with WinBoard by default so everyone who downloads WinBoard already has them
Besides which, I want to, and I get to choose.
But if there is an uproar, I might relent.


My FTP site

[Gábor Szõts]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Gábor Szõts at 16 June 2000 07:47:29:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Battle of the Crowns -- viewpoint question geschrieben von: / posted by: Dann Corbit at 16 June 2000 03:10:57:

I am less sure about Gromit 2 and Gromit 3.

I think I will go with this. The Gromit 2 project has been abandoned, and if I did include that version, I suppose I really should include every version from every author and that would be a bit many.
But if there is an uproar, I might relent.

I will badly miss Gromit2, one of my favourite engines. Its human-like, clear style made it so enjoyable.

[pete]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: pete at 16 June 2000 09:16:06:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Battle of the Crowns -- viewpoint question geschrieben von: / posted by: Gábor Szõts at 16 June 2000 07:47:29:

I am less sure about Gromit 2 and Gromit 3.

I think I will go with this. The Gromit 2 project has been abandoned, and if I did include that version, I suppose I really should include every version from every author and that would be a bit many.
But if there is an uproar, I might relent.

I will badly miss Gromit2, one of my favourite engines. Its human-like, clear style made it so enjoyable.

I wholeheartedly agree . Gromit2 was unique IMO.
Gromit3 though probably stronger seems to head more in the just another program direction ( but it is very young so to early to tell ).
As the evaluation of Gromit3 is written by a new Author ( Kai Skibbe ) I think it is fair to let Gromit2 play too ( and it is really fun to watch Gromit2 at longer time controls [a maybe even better argument ]).

[Volker Pittlik]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Volker Pittlik at 16 June 2000 09:30:16:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Battle of the Crowns -- viewpoint question geschrieben von: / posted by: pete at 16 June 2000 09:16:06:
My vote: GnuChess 4+5 in, Gromit 2 out. Dont' know exactly why.
vp

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 16 June 2000 09:34:59:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Battle of the Crowns -- viewpoint question geschrieben von: / posted by: pete at 16 June 2000 09:16:06:

As the evaluation of Gromit3 is written by a new Author ( Kai Skibbe ) I think it is fair to let Gromit2 play too ( and it is really fun to watch Gromit2 at longer time controls [a maybe even better argument ]).

The original author is still responsible for the development of Gromit, so essentially Gromit 3 is the newest version. No Gromit 2 in the tournament IMHO. That doesn't apply to GNUChess 5.0, since the authors are different, so GNUChess 5 is an acceptable addition as far as I'm concerned.
Best wishes...
Mogens

[Gábor Szõts]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Gábor Szõts at 16 June 2000 10:27:36:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Battle of the Crowns -- viewpoint question geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 16 June 2000 09:34:59:

The original author is still responsible for the development of Gromit, so essentially Gromit 3 is the newest version. No Gromit 2 in the tournament IMHO. That doesn't apply to GNUChess 5.0, since the authors are different...

(1) Does a change in the first figure in the version number not mean that there is a completely new principle introduced, which could as well have resulted in changing the program name completely, were it not inconvenient for the authors?
(2) Are you sure the new authors of GNUChess have not made use of anything from the old source? Why then have they retained the name?
Gábor

[gianluigi]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: gianluigi at 16 June 2000 10:35:20:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Battle of the Crowns -- viewpoint question geschrieben von: / posted by: Dann Corbit at 15 June 2000 23:39:57:
snip
my opinions

Should more than one version of an engine be allowed to enter?

i'd prefer one version for each programmer.
ciao
gianluigi

[Severi Salminen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Severi Salminen at 16 June 2000 11:02:36:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Battle of the Crowns -- viewpoint question geschrieben von: / posted by: Dann Corbit at 15 June 2000 23:39:57:

Since Gromit has undergone a major rewrite going from version 2 to version 3,
and GnuChess has undergone a major rewrite going from version 4 to version 5,
I have a question to the WinBoard community:
Should more than one version of an engine be allowed to enter?
I was not planning to allow multiple entries for versions other than these, but I am now wondering if my decision to allow these particular multiple versions is unfair.
What do you (the major WinBoard fan club persons) think ought to be done?
Allow only a single version for each program?
Allow multiple versions for other programs?

Hi!
I think you should only allow one (the latest) version of an engine. The reason is that the latest version is the flagship, on which future versions will be based. It would also make the tournament faster (less participants). And on same priciple why not include all Crafty versions available? It would be different thing if they changed the name of GNUchess 5 to some other. _Then_ GNU 4 could be included.
It also is true that GNUchess 4 is still available with Winboard (someone used this as an argument to allow it to participate) with GNU 5 but I think they should remove it: distribute winboard as winboard and engines as engines, not together.
Severi

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 16 June 2000 11:06:37:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Battle of the Crowns -- viewpoint question geschrieben von: / posted by: Gábor Szõts at 16 June 2000 10:27:36:

(1) Does a change in the first figure in the version number not mean that there is a completely new principle introduced, which could as well have resulted in changing the program name completely, were it not inconvenient for the authors?
(2) Are you sure the new authors of GNUChess have not made use of anything from the old source? Why then have they retained the name?

Consider Crafty and Comet. If we used your definition then these programs would be allowed to participate with multiple versions, even though there might not be that many new principles involved. Unless someone wants to check source code it would be easier to use the newest version for the programs involved.
I can't be sure that old source code hasn't been used, but I somehow doubt that it's very much if any. There's recycled source code in a lot of programs. I think there is a readme file concerning GNUChess 5 that comes with WinBoard. I've deleted mine, so I can't check what it says. The reason for the same name is probably that it's a chess game released under the GNU license/agreement.
My personal conclusion is: One program per author/programmer, unless it's an obvious clone like Bionic. This means that GNUChess 5 is in and Gromit 2 is out. I hope it made some sense.
Best wishes...
Mogens

[Gábor Szõts]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Gábor Szõts at 16 June 2000 12:04:32:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Battle of the Crowns -- viewpoint question geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 16 June 2000 11:06:37:

[Thomas Mayer]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Thomas Mayer at 16 June 2000 13:49:13:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Battle of the Crowns -- viewpoint question geschrieben von: / posted by: Dann Corbit at 15 June 2000 23:39:57:
Hi Dann,

Since Gromit has undergone a major rewrite going from version 2 to version 3,
and GnuChess has undergone a major rewrite going from version 4 to version 5,
I have a question to the WinBoard community:
Should more than one version of an engine be allowed to enter?
I was not planning to allow multiple entries for versions other than these, but I am now wondering if my decision to allow these particular multiple versions is unfair.

Well, first, I think, with GnuChess and Gromit it is something special, GnuChess 4 and 5 are completely different engines, so I think both can participate. As far as I know it is the same with Gromit 2 and 3.
As said above, this is special... Perhaps with InmiChess 3 and 2 (I think 3 was the first Bitboard version ?!) it could be the same...
Perhaps, you can say, if the author want it, the engine can participate with 2 versions, first the oldest stable (!) engine and the newest... I think the results will be very interesting, every programmer can see then how much of the progress of his engine depends on his code and how much depends on faster hardware... (By the way, I have here a Crafty 9.8 ... But it does not work that good with Winboard, but could be interesting how good this one is...)
Problem of all is: You're tourney get's bigger and bigger and bigger... perhaps it is better to start with the engines you have in your list now, get the results and later play in the older engines...
Greets, Thomas

[Thomas Mayer]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Thomas Mayer at 16 June 2000 14:00:23:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Battle of the Crowns -- viewpoint question geschrieben von: / posted by: Dann Corbit at 16 June 2000 03:10:57:
Hi Dann,

GnuChess 5 and Gnuchess 4 are completely different programs, with
very different strenghs and weaknesses, so IMO it is quite
appropriate to include both. Gnu 4 is one of the early freeware
programs and is still reasonably strong so including it is of
interest.
I am less sure about Gromit 2 and Gromit 3.

I think I will go with this. The Gromit 2 project has been abandoned, and if I did include that version, I suppose I really should include every version from every author and that would be a bit many.

Besides which, I want to, and I get to choose.

Hey Dann, there's no court who can judge about you... You can include what you want... --> But when you say, Gromit 2 is abandoned... As far as I know, Gnu 4 is also abandoned... And as I can see, Gromit 2 and 3 are also very different, same name, but completely new engine...
Only reason that counts... --> But you are right, I think GnuChess 4 must participate... Old, in some case antiquated engine but still strong enough for many surprises ! For example, last week I have here a little tourney under Fritz with Fritz 6a,6,5.32, Crafty 17.something, Comet, Doctor, ExChess and Gnu, Gnu lost most, but was the only engine which can win against Fritz 5.32 (Was Blitz 5/G - I think 5.32 is in Blitz stronger then 6 and 6a) fun...
Greets, Thomas

[Aaron]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Aaron at 16 June 2000 18:29:43:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Battle of the Crowns -- viewpoint question geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 16 June 2000 11:06:37:
I would prefer Gromit2 to be in..I think we all agree incremental upgrades like cometb20 to combet23 should be out..
But Gromit3 was completely rewritten from Gromit2 and it plays different by a lot..
So both should be in..
As for GNUchess4 or 5, I don't mind both entering, but I don't know much about those 2..But in terms of differences in code can we say that the differences in GNU4 as opposed to GNU5 is far greater than between Gormit3 and Gromit2?
I have no idea..But from what I read, Gromit3 deserves more than GNUCHess to be considered a different program from it earlier versions..
But on the other hand, the current list shows that Gromit3 and Gromit2 are about the same strenght.,.so are they that different?

[Dann Corbit]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dann Corbit at 17 June 2000 00:19:35:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Re: Battle of the Crowns -- viewpoint question geschrieben von: / posted by: Aaron at 16 June 2000 18:29:43:

I would prefer Gromit2 to be in..I think we all agree incremental upgrades like cometb20 to combet23 should be out..
But Gromit3 was completely rewritten from Gromit2 and it plays different by a lot..
So both should be in..
As for GNUchess4 or 5, I don't mind both entering, but I don't know much about those 2..But in terms of differences in code can we say that the differences in GNU4 as opposed to GNU5 is far greater than between Gormit3 and Gromit2?
I have no idea..But from what I read, Gromit3 deserves more than GNUCHess to be considered a different program from it earlier versions..
But on the other hand, the current list shows that Gromit3 and Gromit2 are about the same strenght.,.so are they that different?

GnuChess 5 is a complete rewrite by different authorship. It just shares the name. They are doing major surgery right now, and hope to have the patient ready for the match before it begins.
They are very different in the way that they play, even though the strength is similar.
I also want GnuChess4 in because of an old story that has to do with "pansies."
Personally, I wanted to run both Gromit2 and Gromit3 because I find them very entertaining and very diffent and because both of them play great chess.
But, on the other hand, I do not want to be unfair to the other authors of chess programs.
It's a fine line, and I will never please everyone, but I do want to be accomodating and not offend anyone (or offend as few as possible at least).


My FTP site

[Frank Schneider]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Frank Schneider at 17 June 2000 08:46:04:
Als Antwort auf: / As an answer to: Battle of the Crowns -- viewpoint question geschrieben von: / posted by: Dann Corbit at 15 June 2000 23:39:57:
Hi!

Since Gromit has undergone a major rewrite going from version 2 to version 3,
and GnuChess has undergone a major rewrite going from version 4 to version 5,
I have a question to the WinBoard community:
Should more than one version of an engine be allowed to enter?
I was not planning to allow multiple entries for versions other than these, but I am now wondering if my decision to allow these particular multiple versions is unfair.
What do you (the major WinBoard fan club persons) think ought to be done?
Allow only a single version for each program?
Allow multiple versions for other programs?
Or ???

Thats right. It uses a completely new eval and unlike Gromit 2.20 I'm not the
only author (Kai Skibbe wrote the eval and did a lot of testing, bug-fixing,
...).
I'd like to see both versions of GNU and of course it would be nice if
both Gromits could participate. Gromit 2.20s result is maybe interesting,
because it played in the WCCC '99.
Depending on the hardware available for the matches I would allow multiple
versions. If the tournament took too long just allow a single version.
Frank