Big amateur tournament: participants searched

[Kurt Utzinger]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 23 May 2004 17:44:55:


We are planning to play a big amateur tournament
time control 120'/60, ponder=off, using Wb2Uci.exe,
under Fritz8-GUI, with 8 participants under the
following conditions:
- own book must be available for each engine
- access to EGTB possible
- no commercial version of the engines on the market
- only versions released for public (no change during tournament)
and are now wondering which are the strongest engines we should/could
use in this long tournament over 70 rounds whereby two (2) programs may
not belong to the best ones provided they play a particular interesting
style. In this respect: we have already reserved a place for Gothmog 0.4.8.
Considering these conditions we see that no List, no Ktulu, no Ruffian
can participate. I am awaiting your suggestions for this tournament
possibly with explanations why engine X should be included.
Kurt



Kurt & Rolf Chess

[Uri Blass]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Uri Blass at 23 May 2004 18:16:06:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Big amateur tournament: participants searched geschrieben von:/posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 23 May 2004 17:44:55:

We are planning to play a big amateur tournament
time control 120'/60, ponder=off, using Wb2Uci.exe,
under Fritz8-GUI, with 8 participants under the
following conditions:
- own book must be available for each engine
- access to EGTB possible
- no commercial version of the engines on the market
- only versions released for public (no change during tournament)
and are now wondering which are the strongest engines we should/could
use in this long tournament over 70 rounds whereby two (2) programs may
not belong to the best ones provided they play a particular interesting
style. In this respect: we have already reserved a place for Gothmog 0.4.8.
Considering these conditions we see that no List, no Ktulu, no Ruffian
can participate. I am awaiting your suggestions for this tournament
possibly with explanations why engine X should be included.
Kurt

I changed the title because I think that the title of big tournament is misleading.
Uri

[Uri Blass]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Uri Blass at 23 May 2004 18:19:16:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Small 8 participants Strong amateur tournament geschrieben von:/posted by: Uri Blass at 23 May 2004 18:16:06:

We are planning to play a big amateur tournament
time control 120'/60, ponder=off, using Wb2Uci.exe,
under Fritz8-GUI, with 8 participants under the
following conditions:
- own book must be available for each engine
- access to EGTB possible
- no commercial version of the engines on the market
- only versions released for public (no change during tournament)
and are now wondering which are the strongest engines we should/could
use in this long tournament over 70 rounds whereby two (2) programs may
not belong to the best ones provided they play a particular interesting
style. In this respect: we have already reserved a place for Gothmog 0.4.8.
Considering these conditions we see that no List, no Ktulu, no Ruffian
can participate. I am awaiting your suggestions for this tournament
possibly with explanations why engine X should be included.
Kurt

I changed the title because I think that the title of big tournament is misleading.
Uri

changing again the title because in second thought mayeb the word small is also misleading because the tournament takes lot of time and the information about 8 participants is enough.
long describe the fact that you plan a lot of games.
Uri

[Kurt Utzinger]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 23 May 2004 18:25:01:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: 8 participants Strong long amateur tournament geschrieben von:/posted by: Uri Blass at 23 May 2004 18:19:16:

English is not my native language but I am of the opinion
that "big" tournament means a tournament with lot of games.
Kurt

[Uri Blass]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Uri Blass at 23 May 2004 19:33:47:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: 8 participants Strong long amateur tournament geschrieben von:/posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 23 May 2004 18:25:01:

English is not my native language but I am of the opinion
that "big" tournament means a tournament with lot of games.
Kurt

It is also not my native english but even if it can be used in that way then I still think that the meaning of the word big is at least unclear and it is better to use more clear words.
It is clear that both explanation talk about big in meaning of number(number of games or number of participants) and the similiarity can be misleading.
A good title should describe as much as possible and not be misleading even for people that english is not their first language.
I think that the last title is simply better(I again changed the title and added the word needed).
Uri

[Bryan Hofmann]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Bryan Hofmann at 23 May 2004 20:52:05:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: needed 8 participants for Strong long amateur tournament geschrieben von:/posted by: Uri Blass at 23 May 2004 19:33:47:

English is not my native language but I am of the opinion
that "big" tournament means a tournament with lot of games.
Kurt

It is also not my native english
It is clear that both explanation talk about big in meaning of number(number of games or number of participants) and the similiarity can be misleading.
A good title should describe as much as possible and not be misleading even for people that english is not their first language.
I think that the last title is simply better(I again changed the title and added the word needed).
Uri

Obvious statement here and a good reason why you should reconsider posting these nonsense responses. The manner in which Big was used is correct.
Short definition of Big
Of considerable size, number, quantity, magnitude, or extent; large.
Wrong, the title should entice readers to read the post.
Wrong, This title makes it sound as the participant requirement was in the past.

[Olivier Deville]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Olivier Deville at 23 May 2004 21:11:23:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: needed 8 participants for Strong long amateur tournament geschrieben von:/posted by: Bryan Hofmann at 23 May 2004 20:52:05:

English is not my native language but I am of the opinion
that "big" tournament means a tournament with lot of games.
Kurt

It is also not my native english
It is clear that both explanation talk about big in meaning of number(number of games or number of participants) and the similiarity can be misleading.
A good title should describe as much as possible and not be misleading even for people that english is not their first language.
I think that the last title is simply better(I again changed the title and added the word needed).
Uri

Obvious statement here and a good reason why you should reconsider posting these nonsense responses. The manner in which Big was used is correct.
Short definition of Big
Of considerable size, number, quantity, magnitude, or extent; large.
Wrong, the title should entice readers to read the post.
Wrong, This title makes it sound as the participant requirement was in the past.

I think Uri was simply trying to help.
And what about : "8 participants needed for strong long tournament" ? Of course, I am only a frog-eater, so my understanding of english language is very poor
Olivier



ChessWar

[Jon Dart]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Jon Dart at 23 May 2004 21:13:41:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Big amateur tournament: participants searched geschrieben von:/posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 23 May 2004 17:44:55:

possibly with explanations why engine X should be included.
Kurt

I am awaiting your suggestions for this tournament
Well, Crafty and Yace meet your requirements, I think.
Aristarch, Pharaon, and Tao are also strong non-commercial
engines and have TB support.
--Jon

[Martin Baumung]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Martin Baumung at 23. May 2004 21:25:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Big amateur tournament: participants searched geschrieben von:/posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 23 May 2004 17:44:55:

We are planning to play a big amateur tournament
time control 120'/60, ponder=off, using Wb2Uci.exe,
under Fritz8-GUI, with 8 participants under the
following conditions:
- own book must be available for each engine
- access to EGTB possible
- no commercial version of the engines on the market
- only versions released for public (no change during tournament)
and are now wondering which are the strongest engines we should/could
use in this long tournament over 70 rounds whereby two (2) programs may
not belong to the best ones provided they play a particular interesting
style. In this respect: we have already reserved a place for Gothmog 0.4.8.
Considering these conditions we see that no List, no Ktulu, no Ruffian
can participate. I am awaiting your suggestions for this tournament
possibly with explanations why engine X should be included.
Kurt

Well... my suggestions are SmarThink 0.17a and Thinker 4.6b. Even if the latter one doesn't support EGTBs. But Thinker 4.6b is a really strong engine with great endgame skills and I think it would perform rather well in such a tournament.
Martin

[Bryan Hofmann]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Bryan Hofmann at 23 May 2004 21:33:33:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Big amateur tournament: participants searched geschrieben von:/posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 23 May 2004 17:44:55:

We are planning to play a big amateur tournament
time control 120'/60, ponder=off, using Wb2Uci.exe,
under Fritz8-GUI, with 8 participants under the
following conditions:
- own book must be available for each engine
- access to EGTB possible
- no commercial version of the engines on the market
- only versions released for public (no change during tournament)
and are now wondering which are the strongest engines we should/could
use in this long tournament over 70 rounds whereby two (2) programs may
not belong to the best ones provided they play a particular interesting
style. In this respect: we have already reserved a place for Gothmog 0.4.8.
Considering these conditions we see that no List, no Ktulu, no Ruffian
can participate. I am awaiting your suggestions for this tournament
possibly with explanations why engine X should be included.
Kurt

I would like to recommend Tao for your consideration in this tourney. I have been a Beta tester for Bas, the author for the last 6 months. Running EPD tests matches etc I have found the new 5.7 beta to be a real winner. I see you have already chosen Gothmog and I sure it is due to it's tatical play, in my tests Tao has passed Gothmog in tactical test suites and balances this with good positional play. Some results from tests suites run are;
10 Seconds per position;
ECM-GCP 147 correct out of 183
IQ2 175 correct out of 201
BK 17 correct out of 24
10 Minutes per postion;
LCT2 27 correct out of 35 for a score of 2675
15 Minutes per position
BS2830 21 correct out of 27 for a score of 2679

[Kurt Utzinger]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 23 May 2004 21:38:49:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Big amateur tournament: participants searched geschrieben von:/posted by: Jon Dart at 23 May 2004 21:13:41:

possibly with explanations why engine X should be included.
Kurt

I am awaiting your suggestions for this tournament
Well, Crafty and Yace meet your requirements, I think.
Aristarch, Pharaon, and Tao are also strong non-commercial
engines and have TB support.
--Jon

Many thanks: first reply not dealing with the
subject of my posting -:)
Kurt



Kurt & Rolf Chess

[Uri Blass]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Uri Blass at 23 May 2004 21:40:37:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: needed 8 participants for Strong long amateur tournament geschrieben von:/posted by: Olivier Deville at 23 May 2004 21:11:23:

English is not my native language but I am of the opinion
that "big" tournament means a tournament with lot of games.
Kurt

It is also not my native english
It is clear that both explanation talk about big in meaning of number(number of games or number of participants) and the similiarity can be misleading.
A good title should describe as much as possible and not be misleading even for people that english is not their first language.
I think that the last title is simply better(I again changed the title and added the word needed).
Uri

Obvious statement here and a good reason why you should reconsider posting these nonsense responses. The manner in which Big was used is correct.
Short definition of Big
Of considerable size, number, quantity, magnitude, or extent; large.
Wrong, the title should entice readers to read the post.
Wrong, This title makes it sound as the participant requirement was in the past.

I think Uri was simply trying to help.
And what about : "8 participants needed for strong long tournament" ? Of course, I am only a frog-eater, so my understanding of english language is very poor
Olivier

I think that your suggestion is better.
Uri

[Kurt Utzinger]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 23 May 2004 21:41:03:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Big amateur tournament: participants searched geschrieben von:/posted by: Bryan Hofmann at 23 May 2004 21:33:33:

We are planning to play a big amateur tournament
time control 120'/60, ponder=off, using Wb2Uci.exe,
under Fritz8-GUI, with 8 participants under the
following conditions:
- own book must be available for each engine
- access to EGTB possible
- no commercial version of the engines on the market
- only versions released for public (no change during tournament)
and are now wondering which are the strongest engines we should/could
use in this long tournament over 70 rounds whereby two (2) programs may
not belong to the best ones provided they play a particular interesting
style. In this respect: we have already reserved a place for Gothmog 0.4.8.
Considering these conditions we see that no List, no Ktulu, no Ruffian
can participate. I am awaiting your suggestions for this tournament
possibly with explanations why engine X should be included.
Kurt

I would like to recommend Tao for your consideration in this tourney. I have been a Beta tester for Bas, the author for the last 6 months. Running EPD tests matches etc I have found the new 5.7 beta to be a real winner. I see you have already chosen Gothmog and I sure it is due to it's tatical play, in my tests Tao has passed Gothmog in tactical test suites and balances this with good positional play. Some results from tests suites run are;
10 Seconds per position;
ECM-GCP 147 correct out of 183
IQ2 175 correct out of 201
BK 17 correct out of 24
10 Minutes per postion;
LCT2 27 correct out of 35 for a score of 2675
15 Minutes per position
BS2830 21 correct out of 27 for a score of 2679

Maybe I will give both engines (Tao and Gothmog) a chance
to participate.
Kurt



Kurt & Rolf Chess

[Dan Honeycutt]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Dan Honeycutt at 23 May 2004 21:56:13:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: needed 8 participants for Strong long amateur tournament geschrieben von:/posted by: Olivier Deville at 23 May 2004 21:11:23:

English is not my native language but I am of the opinion
that "big" tournament means a tournament with lot of games.
Kurt

It is also not my native english
It is clear that both explanation talk about big in meaning of number(number of games or number of participants) and the similiarity can be misleading.
A good title should describe as much as possible and not be misleading even for people that english is not their first language.
I think that the last title is simply better(I again changed the title and added the word needed).
Uri

Obvious statement here and a good reason why you should reconsider posting these nonsense responses. The manner in which Big was used is correct.
Short definition of Big
Of considerable size, number, quantity, magnitude, or extent; large.
Wrong, the title should entice readers to read the post.
Wrong, This title makes it sound as the participant requirement was in the past.

I think Uri was simply trying to help.
And what about : "8 participants needed for strong long tournament" ? Of course, I am only a frog-eater, so my understanding of english language is very poor
Olivier

Your english is fine Oliver. Your title is the most accurate of the bunch. "Big" says lots of participants. "Long" says lots of games or games lasting a long time.
Dan H.

[Dimitris Poulos]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Dimitris Poulos at 23 May 2004 21:57:49:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Big amateur tournament: participants searched geschrieben von:/posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 23 May 2004 17:44:55:

Hi Kurt,
may I propose Aristarch, Crafty, Smarthink and definetely Thinker?
Dimitris

[Alex Schmidt]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Alex Schmidt at 23 May 2004 22:04:05:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Big amateur tournament: participants searched geschrieben von:/posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 23 May 2004 17:44:55:

Hello Kurt,
it's hard to find the 8 best engines matching your conditions because there are many with nearly equal strength.
I would suggest this engines:
Aristarch
Crafty
SmarThink
Yace
SOS
Then it gets really hard. Maybe one of them:
Pharaon
Dragon
Comet (has also a very interesting style, sometimes with great kingside attacks)
And of course Gothmog, no doubt
Best,
Alex

[Kurt Utzinger]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 23 May 2004 22:31:48:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Big amateur tournament: participants searched geschrieben von:/posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 23 May 2004 17:44:55:


From the answers received I have already 11 engines to choose from:
a difficult task for me to come to a decision. Is there no Elo list
of games at longer time controls to make things easier for me?
01) Aristarch
02) Comet
03) Crafty
04) Dragon
05) Gothmog
06) Pharaon
07) SmarThink
08) SOS
09) Tao
10) Thinker
11) Yace







Kurt & Rolf Chess

[Tord Romstad]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Tord Romstad at 23 May 2004 22:34:21:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Big amateur tournament: participants searched geschrieben von:/posted by: Bryan Hofmann at 23 May 2004 21:33:33:

I see you have already chosen Gothmog and I sure it is due to it's tatical play, in my tests Tao has passed Gothmog in tactical test suites and balances this with good positional play.

I am not familiar with Tao, but Gothmog is not good in tactical test suites at all, and I am sure
you will find lots of engines which perform better in test suites. Gothmog is simply too slow
to be a good tactician.
What makes Gothmog different from most other engines is that it is more willing to make
speculative (and often unsound) sacrifices. I would like to think that this is why Kurt have
chosen Gothmog to be one of the participants. Of course it is possible that Tao is similar
(or even more extreme) in this respect; I cannot know because I have never seen the engine
in action.
Tord

[Will Singleton]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Will Singleton at 23 May 2004 22:43:48:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Needed 8 participants for strong long amateur tournament geschrieben von:/posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 23 May 2004 22:31:48:

From the answers received I have already 11 engines to choose from:
a difficult task for me to come to a decision. Is there no Elo list
of games at longer time controls to make things easier for me?
01) Aristarch
02) Comet
03) Crafty
04) Dragon
05) Gothmog
06) Pharaon
07) SmarThink
08) SOS
09) Tao
10) Thinker
11) Yace

Gosh, I don't know. Maybe this guy Leo, I think he has a list.

[Kurt Utzinger]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 23 May 2004 22:44:21:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Big amateur tournament: participants searched geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 23 May 2004 22:34:21:

[...]

What makes Gothmog different from most other engines is that it is more willing to make
speculative (and often unsound) sacrifices. I would like to think that this is why Kurt have
chosen Gothmog to be one of the participants. Of course it is possible that Tao is similar
(or even more extreme) in this respect; I cannot know because I have never seen the engine
in action.
Tord

You are just right Tord. I have seen some very fascinating and
almost unbelievable games of Gothmog 0.4.7 when strongest engines
have been demolished in a way it seldom happens.
Kurt



Kurt & Rolf Chess