Crafty, Crafty, Crafty?

[Günther Simon]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Günther Simon at 18 September 2004 13:50:01:

Class A of RWBC Round 4 was already completed this morning,
when I found a thread in CCC that the DC version of Crafty 19.17
might be a buggy compilation.
(nothing against Dann, I was always happy with his compilations,
which were suggested also from some authors.)
http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?388015
I decided to rerun the games with the Crafty 19.17 sse2 version
from Peter Skinner, sorry for the inconvenience.
(especially for Zappa, Amy, KOK and Terra)
A want to mention a few things though:
I started the tourney with the setting 'book random 1' and
'book width 2' which is mentioned by Bob Hyatt as best
against computers in all his readme files.
To my surprise I read after round 2 that he had suggested
this only for ICC games and not for tournaments, so I changed
to 'book random 0' and 'book width 3', oh well...and now the
problem with the compilation...
I am also not very happy about the fact that Crafty is one
of 2 or 3 programs _without_ own compilations from the author!
(Thus it's easy to blame someone else for poor results)
Moreover the permanent saying of its 'inability' to play
at same strength with ponder off made me think about
either removing it at all, or just use the last available
version from the authors site, which would have been
Crafty 19.03!
Finally I decided to give Peter Skinners compilation a chance,
but I have not yet made up my mind for future editions of RWBC.
You see I am a bit fed up with Crafty right now...
Günther
P.S. previous results vs. new results so far:
White    Black    prev. result  new result
Crafty - Zappa        0 - 1       = - =
Amy    - Crafty       = - =       1 - 0!
Crafty - KingOfKings  = - =       * - *(running, better position for Crafty)
Terra  - Crafty       1 - 0!      * - *

[Bryan Hofmann]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Bryan Hofmann at 18 September 2004 16:10:56:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Crafty, Crafty, Crafty? geschrieben von:/posted by: Günther Simon at 18 September 2004 13:50:01:

Class A of RWBC Round 4 was already completed this morning,
when I found a thread in CCC that the DC version of Crafty 19.17
might be a buggy compilation.
(nothing against Dann, I was always happy with his compilations,
which were suggested also from some authors.)
http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?388015
I decided to rerun the games with the Crafty 19.17 sse2 version
from Peter Skinner, sorry for the inconvenience.
(especially for Zappa, Amy, KOK and Terra)
A want to mention a few things though:
I started the tourney with the setting 'book random 1' and
'book width 2' which is mentioned by Bob Hyatt as best
against computers in all his readme files.
To my surprise I read after round 2 that he had suggested
this only for ICC games and not for tournaments, so I changed
to 'book random 0' and 'book width 3', oh well...and now the
problem with the compilation...
I am also not very happy about the fact that Crafty is one
of 2 or 3 programs _without_ own compilations from the author!
(Thus it's easy to blame someone else for poor results)
Moreover the permanent saying of its 'inability' to play
at same strength with ponder off made me think about
either removing it at all, or just use the last available
version from the authors site, which would have been
Crafty 19.03!
Finally I decided to give Peter Skinners compilation a chance,
but I have not yet made up my mind for future editions of RWBC.
You see I am a bit fed up with Crafty right now...
Günther
P.S. previous results vs. new results so far:
White    Black    prev. result  new result

If you are using Winboard or Arena to run your tourneys it makes no difference what settings you are using with "book random" or "book width" because these 2 GUIs issue the "computer" command prior to the start of each match. The "computer" command sets the "book width" to 1 thus there is no random selction of book moves.

I can only speak for my compiles of Crafty in that I took the Author's compile options that he uses under Linux using the Intel Compiler and matched them as close as possible under Windows using the MicroSoft Compiler. The only items I change are I remove the EPD & DGT code; Since the Author does not compile these options in his playing version I do not either and have found that with these removed the compiler is able to produce a faster and smaller executable. There is one other aspect I change in that I designate inlining of specfic functions at compile time rather than letting the compiler make the desicion which again produces a faster Crafty.
It should be noted That Dann's compile uses the Detect Draw function (selected at compile time) This option is not used by the author as he feels it is still experimental and slower then without this option. Another difference is that Dann's compile does not use the Futility Prunning which the Author does use in his compiles.

The concern Hyatt has about matches without pondering is that Crafty is not able to get a time advantage over the opponent due to a good ponder routine. This holds true for any Chess engine that has a good pondering routine but Hyatt belives his is better then most thus his rational one this matter.
>Crafty - Zappa        0 - 1       = - =
>Amy    - Crafty       = - =       1 - 0!
>Crafty - KingOfKings  = - =       * - *(running, better position for Crafty)
>Terra  - Crafty       1 - 0!      * - *
In my testing I have found 19.17 to play abit weaker then 19.15, but that is all part of the development cycle.



Alternative Crafty Compiles

[Günther Simon]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Günther Simon at 18 September 2004 16:15:45:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Crafty, Crafty, Crafty? geschrieben von:/posted by: Bryan Hofmann at 18 September 2004 16:10:56:

.

[Peter Berger]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Peter Berger at 18 September 2004 16:44:21:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Crafty, Crafty, Crafty? geschrieben von:/posted by: Günther Simon at 18 September 2004 13:50:01:

Class A of RWBC Round 4 was already completed this morning,
when I found a thread in CCC that the DC version of Crafty 19.17
might be a buggy compilation.
(nothing against Dann, I was always happy with his compilations,
which were suggested also from some authors.)
http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?388015
I decided to rerun the games with the Crafty 19.17 sse2 version
from Peter Skinner, sorry for the inconvenience.
(especially for Zappa, Amy, KOK and Terra)
A want to mention a few things though:
I started the tourney with the setting 'book random 1' and
'book width 2' which is mentioned by Bob Hyatt as best
against computers in all his readme files.
To my surprise I read after round 2 that he had suggested
this only for ICC games and not for tournaments, so I changed
to 'book random 0' and 'book width 3', oh well...and now the
problem with the compilation...
I am also not very happy about the fact that Crafty is one
of 2 or 3 programs _without_ own compilations from the author!
(Thus it's easy to blame someone else for poor results)

book random 0 is nonsense IMHO. If Bob says that he usually uses that in tournaments it would be interesting to know if any of these took place after 1990 .

On Pentium computers the SE compilations of Mike Byrne are great, on Athlons the Corbit ones or some other are usually better.
It's *very* tough to do a private match that would please Bob .
Peter

[Bryan Hofmann]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Bryan Hofmann at 18 September 2004 16:53:06:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Crafty, Crafty, Crafty? geschrieben von:/posted by: Peter Berger at 18 September 2004 16:44:21:

Class A of RWBC Round 4 was already completed this morning,
when I found a thread in CCC that the DC version of Crafty 19.17
might be a buggy compilation.
(nothing against Dann, I was always happy with his compilations,
which were suggested also from some authors.)
http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?388015
I decided to rerun the games with the Crafty 19.17 sse2 version
from Peter Skinner, sorry for the inconvenience.
(especially for Zappa, Amy, KOK and Terra)
A want to mention a few things though:
I started the tourney with the setting 'book random 1' and
'book width 2' which is mentioned by Bob Hyatt as best
against computers in all his readme files.
To my surprise I read after round 2 that he had suggested
this only for ICC games and not for tournaments, so I changed
to 'book random 0' and 'book width 3', oh well...and now the
problem with the compilation...
I am also not very happy about the fact that Crafty is one
of 2 or 3 programs _without_ own compilations from the author!
(Thus it's easy to blame someone else for poor results)

book random 0 is nonsense IMHO. If Bob says that he usually uses that in tournaments it would be interesting to know if any of these took place after 1990 .

On Pentium computers the SE compilations of Mike Byrne are great, on Athlons the Corbit ones or some other are usually better.
It's *very* tough to do a private match that would please Bob .
Peter

This is just one of many tourney results I have found matching the different crafty compiles;
http://f27.parsimony.net/forum67213/messages/2909.htm




Alternative Crafty Compiles

[David Dahlem]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: David Dahlem at 18 September 2004 17:12:22:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Crafty, Crafty, Crafty? geschrieben von:/posted by: Günther Simon at 18 September 2004 13:50:01:

Class A of RWBC Round 4 was already completed this morning,
when I found a thread in CCC that the DC version of Crafty 19.17
might be a buggy compilation.
(nothing against Dann, I was always happy with his compilations,
which were suggested also from some authors.)
http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?388015
I decided to rerun the games with the Crafty 19.17 sse2 version
from Peter Skinner, sorry for the inconvenience.
(especially for Zappa, Amy, KOK and Terra)
A want to mention a few things though:
I started the tourney with the setting 'book random 1' and
'book width 2' which is mentioned by Bob Hyatt as best
against computers in all his readme files.
To my surprise I read after round 2 that he had suggested
this only for ICC games and not for tournaments, so I changed
to 'book random 0' and 'book width 3', oh well...and now the
problem with the compilation...
I am also not very happy about the fact that Crafty is one
of 2 or 3 programs _without_ own compilations from the author!
(Thus it's easy to blame someone else for poor results)
Moreover the permanent saying of its 'inability' to play
at same strength with ponder off made me think about
either removing it at all, or just use the last available
version from the authors site, which would have been
Crafty 19.03!
Finally I decided to give Peter Skinners compilation a chance,
but I have not yet made up my mind for future editions of RWBC.
You see I am a bit fed up with Crafty right now...
Günther
P.S. previous results vs. new results so far:
White    Black    prev. result  new result

I also find it odd that a popular engine such as Crafty does not have a compilation for the author.
Dave
>Crafty - Zappa        0 - 1       = - =
>Amy    - Crafty       = - =       1 - 0!
>Crafty - KingOfKings  = - =       * - *(running, better position for Crafty)
>Terra  - Crafty       1 - 0!      * - *

[Peter Fendrich]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Peter Fendrich at 18 September 2004 23:28:08:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Crafty, Crafty, Crafty? geschrieben von:/posted by: Günther Simon at 18 September 2004 13:50:01:

Class A of RWBC Round 4 was already completed this morning,
when I found a thread in CCC that the DC version of Crafty 19.17
might be a buggy compilation.
(nothing against Dann, I was always happy with his compilations,
which were suggested also from some authors.)
http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?388015
I decided to rerun the games with the Crafty 19.17 sse2 version
from Peter Skinner, sorry for the inconvenience.
(especially for Zappa, Amy, KOK and Terra)

Would you do the same if it was Terra or som other engine, not as celebrated as Crafty, with memory leaks?
/Peter


Terra

[Günther Simon]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Günther Simon at 18 September 2004 23:54:28:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Crafty, Crafty, Crafty? geschrieben von:/posted by: Peter Fendrich at 18 September 2004 23:28:08:

Class A of RWBC Round 4 was already completed this morning,
when I found a thread in CCC that the DC version of Crafty 19.17
might be a buggy compilation.
(nothing against Dann, I was always happy with his compilations,
which were suggested also from some authors.)
http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?388015
I decided to rerun the games with the Crafty 19.17 sse2 version
from Peter Skinner, sorry for the inconvenience.
(especially for Zappa, Amy, KOK and Terra)

Would you do the same if it was Terra or som other engine, not as celebrated as Crafty, with memory leaks?
/Peter

Yes I would do the same for every program which was compiled
by a different person than the author and appears to have
such a bug.
(BTW do you really want to say that _every_ Crafty version
had memory leaks? I guess not and according to that post
it was the first time a DC compile had that problem and
this at least is no fault by Bob Hyatt)
Of course if there would be more authors around that refuse
to compile their own program I would simply stop to use them.
If you read my post again Peter you sure will see how 'happy'
I was to be 'forced' to do that.
Any time I notice something like that or a setup error made be
I replay the game and make it public.
Regards,
Günther

[Dann Corbit]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Dann Corbit at 19 September 2004 02:12:13:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Crafty, Crafty, Crafty? geschrieben von:/posted by: David Dahlem at 18 September 2004 17:12:22:

Class A of RWBC Round 4 was already completed this morning,
when I found a thread in CCC that the DC version of Crafty 19.17
might be a buggy compilation.
(nothing against Dann, I was always happy with his compilations,
which were suggested also from some authors.)
http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?388015
I decided to rerun the games with the Crafty 19.17 sse2 version
from Peter Skinner, sorry for the inconvenience.
(especially for Zappa, Amy, KOK and Terra)
A want to mention a few things though:
I started the tourney with the setting 'book random 1' and
'book width 2' which is mentioned by Bob Hyatt as best
against computers in all his readme files.
To my surprise I read after round 2 that he had suggested
this only for ICC games and not for tournaments, so I changed
to 'book random 0' and 'book width 3', oh well...and now the
problem with the compilation...
I am also not very happy about the fact that Crafty is one
of 2 or 3 programs _without_ own compilations from the author!

I also find it odd that a popular engine such as Crafty does not have a compilation for the author.

Dr Hyatt does not use Windows at all. So any compile he might provide would be linux only. Eugene Nalimov used to do all the formal crafty binaries, but for some reason he stopped doing it.



my ftp site {remove http:// unless you like error messages}

[Peter Fendrich]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Peter Fendrich at 19 September 2004 02:27:07:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Crafty, Crafty, Crafty? geschrieben von:/posted by: Günther Simon at 18 September 2004 23:54:28:

Class A of RWBC Round 4 was already completed this morning,
when I found a thread in CCC that the DC version of Crafty 19.17
might be a buggy compilation.
(nothing against Dann, I was always happy with his compilations,
which were suggested also from some authors.)
http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?388015
I decided to rerun the games with the Crafty 19.17 sse2 version
from Peter Skinner, sorry for the inconvenience.
(especially for Zappa, Amy, KOK and Terra)

Would you do the same if it was Terra or som other engine, not as celebrated as Crafty, with memory leaks?
/Peter

Yes I would do the same for every program which was compiled
by a different person than the author and appears to have
such a bug.
(BTW do you really want to say that _every_ Crafty version
had memory leaks? I guess not and according to that post
it was the first time a DC compile had that problem and
this at least is no fault by Bob Hyatt)
Of course if there would be more authors around that refuse
to compile their own program I would simply stop to use them.
If you read my post again Peter you sure will see how 'happy'
I was to be 'forced' to do that.

No, I don't want to say anything. It was not an accusation, more lika a confusion.
I have no idea what's up with Crafty...
I searched for the happy face but found nada
I'm sure you did the right thing.
/Peter


Terra

[David Dahlem]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: David Dahlem at 19 September 2004 04:09:38:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Crafty, Crafty, Crafty? geschrieben von:/posted by: Dann Corbit at 19 September 2004 02:12:13:

Class A of RWBC Round 4 was already completed this morning,
when I found a thread in CCC that the DC version of Crafty 19.17
might be a buggy compilation.
(nothing against Dann, I was always happy with his compilations,
which were suggested also from some authors.)
http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?388015
I decided to rerun the games with the Crafty 19.17 sse2 version
from Peter Skinner, sorry for the inconvenience.
(especially for Zappa, Amy, KOK and Terra)
A want to mention a few things though:
I started the tourney with the setting 'book random 1' and
'book width 2' which is mentioned by Bob Hyatt as best
against computers in all his readme files.
To my surprise I read after round 2 that he had suggested
this only for ICC games and not for tournaments, so I changed
to 'book random 0' and 'book width 3', oh well...and now the
problem with the compilation...
I am also not very happy about the fact that Crafty is one
of 2 or 3 programs _without_ own compilations from the author!

I also find it odd that a popular engine such as Crafty does not have a compilation for the author.

Dr Hyatt does not use Windows at all. So any compile he might provide would be linux only. Eugene Nalimov used to do all the formal crafty binaries, but for some reason he stopped doing it.

It would be convenient for loyal Crafty users if Dr. Hyatt could find someone to replace Eugene to do all the official Crafty binaries, and make them available on his ftp site.
Regards
Dave