Winboard Forum

Posted: **25 Jul 2005, 13:22**

Hi all,

I was a little bit in doubt about where to post this message. Perhaps it would have been more appropriate to post it in the programming forum, but because I am at least as interested in the opinions of strong human players as in the opinions of programmers, I choose to post here.

I am currently trying to improve my program's understanding of development, space and mobility. So far, I haven't been very successful. I have seen some interesting games, and Glaurung seems to have a more active style of play, but the results remain mostly the same.

While testing my evaluation changes, I had a look at the following position:
[diag]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/8/1PP2PP1/RNBQKBNR[/diag]

Code: Select all: rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/8/1PP2PP1/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1

Glaurung 0.2.5u (my most recent development version) evaluates this position at +0.79 for white, which strikes me as remarkably optimistic. The score starts dropping when I let Glaurung search from the given position, but it remains positive. After 13 plies, the score is +0.20.

Surely white has some compensation, but is it really worth more than two pawns? I would be interested to learn how other engines evaluate this position, and also about the opinions of the strong human players among you.

Perhaps it would also be fun to run a little blitz tournament from the above position with some strong engines.

Tord

Posted: **25 Jul 2005, 14:49**

Hi Tord,
Kiwi evaluates the position at -1.37. It gives white bonuses for mobility and pawn structure, but also a malus because the king is too exposed. I think this last factor is a defect and will have to fix it, probably bringing the score around -1.00 or so.
I've also tried Yace and got -0.85 after a few plies search.

Posted: **25 Jul 2005, 19:30**

I can't imagine that white is equal with two pawns less, but I can't really judge since my chess understanding is too limited. :-)

Fruit gives an equal evaluation on shallow depth and only a slight negative evaluation on deeper depth:

FEN: rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/8/1PP2PP1/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1

Fruit_050707bfp [delta60futility120efp240]:
1/1 00:00 2 0 -0,19 Ta1a2
1/1 00:00 3 0 -0,09 Ta1a3
1/1 00:00 5 0 -0,05 Ta1a5
1/4 00:00 13 0 +0,35 Sb1c3
2/4 00:00 86 0 -0,19 Sb1c3 Sb8c6
3/5 00:00 305 0 +0,32 Sb1c3 Sb8c6 Sg1f3
4/6 00:00 579 0 -0,22 Sb1c3 Sb8c6 Sg1f3 Sg8f6
5/14 00:00 5.074 0 +0,25 Sb1c3 Sb8c6 Sg1f3 Sg8f6 Lc1f4
6/15 00:00 11.726 0 -0,16 Sb1c3 Sb8c6 Lc1e3 d7d6 d4d5 Sc6e5 Le3xa7
7/23 00:00 57.682 0 +0,25 Sb1c3 Sb8c6 Sg1f3 Sg8f6 Lf1c4 d7d6 Lc1f4
8/23 00:00 96.352 0 -0,01 Sb1c3 Sb8c6 Sg1f3 Sg8f6 Lf1c4 d7d6 Lc1f4 Lc8g4
9/24 00:01 410.548 0 +0,08 Sb1c3 Sb8c6 Sg1f3 Sg8f6 Lc1f4 d7d6 Lf1b5 Lc8g4 00
10/31 00:03 1.167.827 0 -0,03 Sb1c3 d7d6 Sg1f3 Sg8f6 Lf1c4 Sb8c6 Sf3g5 e7e6 Lc1f4 d6d5
11/36 00:06 2.673.769 441.847 0,00 Sb1c3 d7d6 Sg1f3 Sg8f6 Lf1c4 Sb8c6 00 Lc8g4 Lc1e3 Sc6b4 e4e5
12/38 00:15 6.799.396 444.166 -0,01 Sb1c3 d7d6 Sg1f3 Sg8f6 Lf1c4 Sb8c6 Lc1f4 Lc8g4 Dd1d2 Lg4xf3 g2xf3 e7e5 d4xe5 Sc6xe5
13/48 00:32 14.310.367 446.968 -0,05 Sb1c3 d7d6 Sg1f3 Sg8f6 Lc1g5 Sb8c6 Lf1b5 Lc8d7 00 h7h5 Lb5c4 Ld7g4 Lg5e3
14/48 01:10 30.517.365 433.530 -0,07 Sb1c3 d7d6 Sg1f3 Sg8f6 Lf1b5+ c7c6 Lb5c4 b7b5 Lc4d3 b5b4 Sc3a4 d6d5 e4e5 Sf6e4 00
15/48 04:02 102.467.240 423.476 -0,16 Sb1c3 e7e6 Sg1f3 Lf8b4 Lf1d3 Sg8e7 Ke1f1 Sb8c6 Lc1g5 00 Th1h5 f7f6 Lg5e3 Dd8e8 g2g4
15/50 06:07 152.947.424 416.404 -0,09 Lc1g5 Sg8f6 Sb1c3 d7d6 Sg1f3 Sb8c6 Lf1b5 Lc8d7 Ke1f1 a7a6 Lb5xc6 Ld7xc6 Lg5xf6 g7xf6 Th1h5 Lf8g7 Dd1d3

Shredder 9 gives also only a slight negative evaluation:

FEN: rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/8/1PP2PP1/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1

EngineShredder9UCI:
1/1+ 00:00 1 0 +0,30 Lf1c4
1/1 00:00 2 0 +0,30 Lf1c4
2/4- 00:00 54 0 -0,91 Lf1c4
2/4 00:00 75 0 -0,91 Lf1c4 Sg8f6
2/4+ 00:00 96 0 -0,85 Sb1c3
2/4 00:00 123 0 -0,85 Sb1c3 Sb8c6
3/5+ 00:00 309 30.900 -0,50 Sb1c3 Sb8c6
3/6+ 00:00 394 39.400 +0,02 Sb1c3 Sb8c6
3/6 00:00 485 24.250 +0,11 Sb1c3 e7e6 Sg1f3
4/6- 00:00 1.708 56.933 -0,21 Sb1c3 e7e6
4/6 00:00 1.824 60.800 -0,21 Sb1c3 e7e6 Sg1f3 Sb8c6
5/9+ 00:00 3.258 65.160 +0,04 Sb1c3 e7e6
5/9 00:00 4.111 68.516 +0,10 Sb1c3 e7e6 Sg1f3 Sg8f6 Lf1b5
6/11 00:00 12.247 111.336 -0,09 Sb1c3 Sb8c6 Sg1f3 d7d6 Lf1c4 Sg8f6
7/14 00:00 31.508 136.991 -0,07 Sb1c3 e7e6 Sg1f3 Sg8f6 e4e5 Sf6d5 Sc3xd5
8/17 00:00 86.089 239.136 -0,24 Sb1c3 e7e6 Sg1f3 d7d5 Sf3e5 Sg8f6 e4xd5 Lf8b4
9/22 00:00 192.724 305.426 -0,16 Sb1c3 e7e6 Sg1f3 d7d5 Sf3e5 Sg8f6 Lc1g5 Sb8d7 Lf1b5
10/24 00:01 379.570 344.750 -0,22 Sb1c3 c7c6 Sg1f3 d7d5 Sf3e5 Sg8f6 e4xd5 e7e6 d5xe6 Lc8xe6
11/30 00:03 1.260.109 378.980 -0,29 Sb1c3 d7d6 Lf1c4 Sb8c6
12/31 00:05 2.121.413 369.712 -0,26 Sb1c3 d7d6 Lf1c4 Sg8f6 Lc1g5 Sb8c6 Sg1e2 Lc8g4 f2f3 Lg4d7 00 e7e6
13/32 00:13 4.851.573 375.566 -0,18 Sb1c3 e7e6 Sg1f3 d7d5 e4xd5 e6xd5 Dd1e2+ Lf8e7 Lc1f4 Sg8f6 000 00 Td1e1 Lc8e6 De2d3
14/34 00:24 9.150.370 379.289 -0,22 Sb1c3 c7c6 Sg1f3 d7d6 Lc1f4 Sg8f6 Lf1c4 Lc8g4 00 d6d5 e4xd5 c6xd5 Lc4b3 e7e6 Tf1e1
15/38 00:42 16.213.558 379.877 -0,28 Sb1c3 c7c6 Sg1f3 d7d6 Lc1g5 Lc8g4 Lf1c4 Sg8f6 e4e5 d6d5 Lc4d3 Sf6d7 Th1xh7
16/36 01:37 36.860.734 377.130 -0,32 Sb1c3 c7c6 Sg1f3 d7d6 Sf3g5 Sg8f6 Lc1f4 Lc8g4

regards Joachim

Posted: **25 Jul 2005, 20:10**

Hi,

This is what Natwarlal thinks, but then Natwarlal's scores don't mean much since it has very little chess knowledge.

Code: Select all: 10 00:00:31 -53 6221KN Bf1d3 d7d5 e4xd5 Qd8xd5 Ng1f3 Bc8g4 Nb1c3 Qd5e6+ Bc1e3 Ng8f6 Ra1a5 10 00:00:40 -51 7625KN Bc1f4 e7e6 Nb1c3 Ng8f6 Ng1f3 Nb8c6 d4d5 e6xd5 e4xd5 Qd8e7+ Bf1e2 10 00:01:18 -51 14250KN Bc1f4 e7e6 Nb1c3 Ng8f6 Ng1f3 Nb8c6 d4d5 e6xd5 e4xd5 Qd8e7+ Bf1e2 11 00:01:36 -51 17717KN Bc1f4 e7e6 Nb1c3 Bf8b4 Qd1g4 g7g6 Bf1b5 Bb4xc3+ b2xc3 Ng8f6 Qg4f3 Nb8c6 11 00:02:07 -43 24150KN Nb1c3 e7e6 Nc3b5 a7a5 Bc1f4 d7d6 Ng1f3 Ng8f6 Nb5c3 d6d5 Bf1b5+ Nb8c6 11 00:02:28 -43 28750KN Nb1c3 e7e6 Nc3b5 a7a5 Bc1f4 d7d6 Ng1f3 Ng8f6 Nb5c3 d6d5 Bf1b5+ Nb8c6 12 00:03:14 -46 37101KN Nb1c3 e7e6 Bc1f4 Bf8b4 Qd1g4 g7g6 Qg4h4 f7f6 Bf1b5 Nb8c6 Ng1f3 d7d5 12 00:06:10 -46 72402KN Nb1c3 e7e6 Bc1f4 Bf8b4 Qd1g4 g7g6 Qg4h4 f7f6 Bf1b5 Nb8c6 Ng1f3 d7d5

Pallav

Posted: **26 Jul 2005, 02:04**

Tord Romstad wrote:Surely white has some compensation, but is it really worth more than two pawns?

At a first glance, I would doubt it too, but I wouldn't call myself a strong player. But in this position, White may consider ideas involving Ra1-a3-h3 or similar. Black is definetely in trouble. The position requires sharp aggressive play by White before the dynamic advantage slips away. So I tried Nimzo 8 (very agressive opener) and Hiarcs 9 "aggr." (alternative engine setting):

Code: Select all: Analysis by Nimzo 8: 1.b3 ? (-1.06) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.c3 ? (-0.76) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 ? (-0.76) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 1.c4 ? (-0.64) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 ? (-0.64) Depth: 1/11 00:00:00 (...) 1.Bd3 e6 2.Bf4 c5 3.c3 Qb6 4.Qc2 Nf6 ? (-0.76) Depth: 7/20 00:00:00 29kN ? (-0.92) Depth: 8/22 00:00:01 29kN 1.Nf3 e6 2.Bd3 c5 3.Be3 Qb6 4.Nbd2 Qxb2 5.Nc4 Qb4+ 6.Bd2 ? (-0.91) Depth: 8/22 00:00:01 964kN ? (-0.77) Depth: 12/28 00:01:50 139474kN

The pv contains a sacrifice of another pawn: Black must not play 4...Qbx2 (so, 3...Qb6 doesn't make much sense either).

Code: Select all: Analysis by Hiarcs 9/aggr.: 1.Bc4 e6 2.Nc3 ? (-0.69) Depth: 1/2 00:00:00 ? (-0.92) Depth: 5/14 00:00:00 2kN (...) 1.Nf3 e6 2.Bf4 Ne7 3.d5 Ng6 4.Be3 b6 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Bb5 ? (-0.90) Depth: 8/24 00:00:03 664kN ? (-0.92) Depth: 10/26 00:00:17 3385kN 1.Bg5 d6 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e5 Ng4 5.exd6 cxd6 6.Bc4 Bf5 7.Nh4 Bd7 ? (-0.91) Depth: 10/26 00:00:20 3968kN ? (-0.78) Depth: 12/32 00:02:00 24120kN

Not convincing... Hiarcs insists on the knights developement to c6/f6, but there, one or even both knights will be chased away when White's center pawn(s) advance(s). That cannot be good.

So, we may have the problem that the progs fail to find a good solid developement for Black (I'm not sure if it's even possible though).

For CSS 4/2002, I made an experiment:

[diag]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/2NB1N2/PPPBQPPP/R3K2R[/diag]
rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/2NB1N2/PPPBQPPP/R3K2R b KQkq - 0 7

I let play complete games starting from this position, eng-eng (P3/700, 8m+3s). Junior 5 was the only one winning all games with White. Shredder 5.32 was the best attacker (shortest wins). Tiger 14 was the best defender, scoring 2 wins and 2 draws from 8 games, with Black from this crazy position! :shock:

When Black scored 20%, it means that these (old) engines, in average, did not handle the extreme developement advantage very well. I guess no GM would let Black escape. I don't know if the latest engines would do significantly better. :?:

Code: Select all: Rank Program total W.* B.* 1 Chess Tiger 14.0 10,0/16 7,0 (0) 3,0 (2) 2 Fritz 7 10,0/16 7,5 (1) 2,5 (1) 3 Hiarcs 7.32 9,5/16 7,0 (2) 2,5 (1) 4 Junior 5 9,5/16 8,0 (0) 1,5 (3) 5 Shredder 5.32 8,5/16 7,0 (0) 1,5 (1) 6 Gambit Tiger 2.0 7,0/16 5,0 (2) 2,0 (0) 7 Crafty 18.15 5,5/16 5,0 (0) 0,5 (1) 8 Yace 0.99.56 5,0/16 4,5 (3) 0,5 (1) +Programme aus Exp. 7,0/16 6,5 (3) 0,5 (1) Insgesamt: 72/72 57,5(80%)14,5(20%) *) in brackets: number of draws

Posted: **26 Jul 2005, 03:34**

Code: Select all: [Event "Scared Equestrian Game"] [Site "DCORBIT64"] [Date "2005.07.25"] [Round "-"] [White "-"] [Black "-"] [Result "*"] [ECO "B00o!"] [Variation "Frighted Pony -- YIKES! There's TWO of them!"] 1. d4 Nc6 2. e4 Nb8 * { Shredder is not nearly so optimistic... Analysis from E:\what.epd 7/25/2005 7:18:22 PM Level: 600 Seconds Analyzing engine: Shredder9UCI 1) - 0 1 Avoid move: Best move (Shredder9UCI): Nb1-c3 Not found in: 10:00 2/4- 00:00 54 80 -0.91 Bf1c4 2/4 00:00 75 111 -0.91 Bf1c4 Ng8f6 2/4+ 00:00 96 142 -0.85 Nb1c3 2/4 00:00 123 183 -0.85 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 3/5+ 00:00 309 459 -0.50 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 3/6+ 00:00 394 586 +0.02 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 3/6 00:00 485 721 +0.11 Nb1c3 e7e6 Ng1f3 4/6- 00:00 1.708 2.541 -0.21 Nb1c3 e7e6 4/6 00:00 1.824 2.651 -0.21 Nb1c3 e7e6 Ng1f3 Nb8c6 5/9+ 00:00 3.258 4.735 +0.04 Nb1c3 e7e6 5/9 00:00 4.111 5.975 +0.10 Nb1c3 e7e6 Ng1f3 Ng8f6 Bf1b5 6/11 00:00 12.247 17.396 -0.09 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 Ng1f3 d7d6 Bf1c4 Ng8f6 7/14 00:00 31.508 42.010 -0.07 Nb1c3 e7e6 Ng1f3 Ng8f6 e4e5 Nf6d5 Nc3xd5 8/17 00:01 86.050 100.058 -0.24 Nb1c3 e7e6 Ng1f3 d7d5 Nf3e5 Ng8f6 e4xd5 Bf8b4 9/22 00:01 192.644 176.091 -0.16 Nb1c3 e7e6 Ng1f3 d7d5 Nf3e5 Ng8f6 Bc1g5 Nb8d7 Bf1b5 10/24 00:01 379.480 252.986 -0.22 Nb1c3 c7c6 Ng1f3 d7d5 Nf3e5 Ng8f6 e4xd5 e7e6 d5xe6 Bc8xe6 11/30 00:03 1.255.399 361.890 -0.29 Nb1c3 d7d6 Bf1c4 Nb8c6 12/31 00:07 2.101.255 300.823 -0.26 Nb1c3 d7d6 Bf1c4 Ng8f6 Bc1g5 Nb8c6 Ng1e2 Bc8g4 f2f3 Bg4d7 00 e7e6 13/27 00:10 3.805.922 354.039 -0.15 Nb1c3 d7d6 Bf1c4 Ng8f6 Ng1f3 Bc8g4 e4e5 d6d5 Bc4d3 Nf6d7 Bc1g5 c7c6 14/32 00:21 8.808.377 408.494 -0.14 Nb1c3 c7c6 Ng1f3 d7d6 Bf1e2 Ng8f6 Bc1g5 d6d5 e4xd5 c6xd5 00 Nb8c6 Nf3e5 15/31 00:33 13.517.336 402.181 -0.22 Nb1c3 c7c6 Ng1f3 d7d6 Bf1c4 Ng8f6 Bc4b3 e7e6 00 Bf8e7 Bc1f4 00 16/37 01:06 27.967.561 421.649 -0.23 Nb1c3 c7c6 Ng1f3 d7d6 Bf1c4 Ng8f6 Bc4b3 e7e6 Bc1f4 Bf8e7 Qd1d3 Nb8d7 000 d6d5 e4xd5 c6xd5 Bb3a4 17/37 02:14 57.266.589 425.425 -0.22 Nb1c3 c7c6 Ng1f3 d7d6 Bf1e2 Ng8f6 Bc1f4 Bc8g4 Nf3g5 Bg4xe2 Qd1xe2 e7e6 000 Bf8e7 e4e5 Nf6d5 Nc3xd5 18/43 05:17 135.437.514 427.309 -0.25 Nb1c3 c7c6 Bc1g5 Ng8f6 e4e5 Nf6d5 Nc3xd5 c6xd5 Ng1f3 Nb8c6 c2c3 d7d6 Bf1e2 h7h6 7/25/2005 7:28:30 PM, Time for this analysis: 00:10:00, Rated time: 10:00 0 of 1 matching moves 7/25/2005 7:28:31 PM, Total time: 12:10:08 AM Rated time: 10:00 = 600 Seconds }

Posted: **26 Jul 2005, 03:44**

Analysis from E:\what.epd
7/25/2005 7:18:22 PM Level: Infinite
Analyzing engine: Fruit_21_db

1) - 0 1
Avoid move:
Best move (Fruit_21_db): Bc1-g5
Not found in: 10:00
2/4 00:00 86 0 -0.19 Nb1c3 Nb8c6
3/5 00:00 307 0 +0.32 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 Ng1f3
4/6 00:00 663 0 -0.22 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 Ng1f3 Ng8f6
5/14 00:00 6.207 0 +0.25 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 Ng1f3 Ng8f6 Bc1f4
6/16 00:00 14.689 0 -0.16 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 Bc1e3 d7d6 d4d5 Nc6e5 Be3xa7
7/23 00:00 83.393 0 +0.25 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 Ng1f3 Ng8f6 Bf1c4 d7d6 Bc1f4
8/23 00:00 150.850 0 -0.01 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 Ng1f3 Ng8f6 Bf1c4 d7d6 Bc1f4 Bc8g4
9/25 00:01 782.343 0 +0.08 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 Ng1f3 Ng8f6 Bc1f4 d7d6 Bf1b5 Bc8g4 00
10/31 00:02 1.447.317 783.189 0.00 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 Ng1f3 Ng8f6 Bc1f4 d7d6 Bf1b5 Bc8d7 00 h7h5
11/37 00:06 4.476.762 812.000 +0.03 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 Ng1f3 Ng8f6 Bc1f4 d7d6 Bf1b5 a7a6 d4d5 Ra8b8 Bb5c4
12/37 00:12 10.042.320 819.167 -0.01 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 Bc1f4 d7d6 Ng1f3 Ng8f6 Bf1c4 Bc8g4 Qd1d2 Bg4xf3 g2xf3 e7e5 d4xe5 Nc6xe5
13/39 00:36 27.658.880 763.550 -0.01 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 Bc1f4 d7d6 Ng1f3 Ng8f6 Bf1b5 Bc8d7 00 h7h5 Bb5c4 h5h4 Nf3g5
14/45 02:18 109.110.404 790.913 -0.19 Nb1c3 e7e6 Ng1f3 Bf8b4 Bf1d3 Nb8c6 Bc1d2 Ng8f6 e4e5 Nf6g4 Bd2g5 Bb4e7 Bg5xe7 Qd8xe7 Bd3xh7
14/45 03:18 156.852.466 793.538 -0.10 Ng1f3 d7d6 Nb1c3 Ng8f6 Bc1f4 Nb8c6 Bf1b5 Bc8d7 00 h7h5 e4e5 Nf6g4 Rf1e1 h5h4 e5xd6 c7xd6
15/45 06:54 324.151.236 783.584 -0.12 Ng1f3 e7e6 Bf1b5 c7c6 Bb5d3 Nb8a6 Nb1c3 Na6b4 Bd3e2 Ng8f6 Bc1g5 Bf8e7 00 d7d5 e4e5
15/45 09:43 454.645.311 779.838 -0.09 Bc1g5 d7d6 Nb1c3 Ng8f6 Ng1f3 Nb8c6 Bf1b5 Bc8d7 Ke1f1 a7a6 Bb5xc6 Bd7xc6 Bg5xf6 g7xf6 Rh1h5 Bf8g7 Qd1d3
7/25/2005 7:38:40 PM, Time for this analysis: 00:10:00, Rated time: 10:00

0 of 1 matching moves
7/25/2005 7:38:41 PM, Total time: 12:20:18 AM
Rated time: 10:00 = 600 Seconds

Posted: **26 Jul 2005, 03:50**

THe original question engine -- Glaurung:

Analysis from E:\what.epd
7/25/2005 7:18:22 PM Level: Infinite
Analyzing engine: Glaurung

1) - 0 1
Avoid move:
Best move (Glaurung): Nb1-c3
Not found in: 10:00
2 00:00 86 0 -0.84 Ng1f3 Nb8c6
3 00:00 628 0 -0.84 Ng1f3 d7d5 Bf1b5+ Nb8c6
3 00:00 795 0 -0.66 Bf1b5 Nb8c6 Ng1f3
3 00:00 962 0 -0.60 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 Bf1c4
4 00:00 1.401 87.562 -0.88 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 Ng1f3 e7e6
5 00:00 4.544 284.000 -0.65 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 Ng1f3 e7e6 Bc1g5
6 00:00 9.058 292.193 -0.85 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 d4d5 Nc6e5 Ng1f3 Ne5g4
7 00:00 40.020 513.076 -0.81 Nb1c3 e7e6 Ng1f3 Nb8c6 Nf3g5 Ng8f6 Bc1f4
7 00:00 52.898 485.302 -0.71 Bf1c4 e7e6 Nb1c3 Ng8f6 Bc1g5 Nb8c6 Ng1f3
8 00:00 80.128 465.860 -0.93 Bf1c4 e7e6 Nb1c3 Ng8f6 Bc1g5 Nb8c6 Ng1f3 Bf8d6
8 00:00 97.712 481.339 -0.83 Nb1c3 e7e6 Ng1f3 Nb8c6 Bf1c4 Bf8e7 Bc1f4 Ng8f6
9 00:00 274.470 474.861 -0.83 Nb1c3 e7e6 Ng1f3 Nb8c6 Bf1c4 Ng8f6 Nf3e5 Bf8e7 Bc1e3 Nc6xe5 d4xe5
10 00:01 596.196 401.749 -0.82 Nb1c3 e7e6 Ng1f3 Bf8b4 Bc1g5 Bb4xc3+ b2xc3 Ng8e7 Bg5xe7 Qd8xe7 Bf1c4
11 00:03 1.492.323 434.067 -0.75 Nb1c3 e7e6 Ng1f3 Bf8e7 Bf1d3 Nb8c6 e4e5 f7f5 d4d5 Nc6b4 Bd3b5
12 00:08 3.521.831 431.755 -0.77 Nb1c3 e7e6 Ng1f3 Bf8e7 Bf1d3 g7g6 Bc1f4 Nb8c6 Nc3b5 d7d6 Bd3c4 Bc8d7
13 00:15 7.129.727 453.573 -0.75 Nb1c3 e7e6 Ng1f3 Bf8e7 Bf1d3 d7d6 Ke1f1 Nb8c6 Bd3c4 Ng8f6 Bc1g5 Bc8d7 Bg5f4
14 00:26 12.080.116 453.951 -0.75 Nb1c3 e7e6 Ng1f3 Bf8e7 d4d5 Ng8f6 Nf3g5 h7h6 Bc1e3 Rh8g8 Ra1xa7 Ra8xa7 Be3xa7 h6xg5 Ba7xb8
15 01:24 37.961.911 449.147 -0.77 Nb1c3 e7e6 Ng1f3 Bf8e7 Nc3b5 Nb8a6 Bc1f4 d7d6 Bf1c4 Ng8f6 Nb5c3 d6d5 Bc4xa6 b7xa6 e4e5
16 04:41 123.527.631 438.456 -0.75 Nb1c3 e7e6 Ng1f3 Bf8e7 Bf1c4 Ng8f6 Bc1f4 Be7b4 e4e5 Nf6d5 Bc4xd5 e6xd5 Nf3g5 Nb8c6 Ng5xh7 Bb4xc3+ b2xc3
7/25/2005 7:48:52 PM, Time for this analysis: 00:10:00, Rated time: 10:00

0 of 1 matching moves
7/25/2005 7:48:52 PM, Total time: 12:30:30 AM
Rated time: 10:00 = 600 Seconds

Posted: **26 Jul 2005, 04:01**

Analysis from E:\what.epd
7/25/2005 7:18:22 PM Level: Infinite
Analyzing engine: Gandalf60

1) - 0 1
Avoid move:
Best move (Gandalf60): Ng1-f3
Not found in: 10:00
6/19 00:01 27.173 271.730 +0.67 Bc1g5 Ng8f6 Nb1c3 d7d6 Bg5xf6 g7xf6 Bf1c4
7/23 00:01 52.898 264.490 +0.51 Bc1g5 Ng8f6 Nb1c3 d7d6 Bg5xf6 g7xf6 Bf1b5+ c7c6 Bb5c4
8/29 00:02 365.405 332.186 +0.22 Bc1g5 d7d5 Nb1c3 d5xe4 Nc3xe4 Nb8c6 Bf1b5 Ng8f6 Bb5xc6+ b7xc6 Ne4c5
8/32+ 00:03 531.892 354.594 +0.22 Bf1b5 Ng8f6
8/32 00:03 603.911 377.444 +0.22 Bc1g5 d7d5 Nb1c3 d5xe4 Nc3xe4 Nb8c6 Bf1b5 Ng8f6 Bb5xc6+ b7xc6 Ne4c5
8/32+ 00:03 616.906 342.725 +0.22 Ng1f3 e7e6
8/32 00:03 793.958 360.890 +0.35 Ng1f3 d7d5 e4xd5 Ng8f6 Bc1g5 Nf6xd5 Bf1b5+ c7c6 Bb5d3
9/32 00:05 1.251.092 347.525 +0.32 Ng1f3 d7d5 e4xd5 Ng8f6 Bc1g5 Nf6xd5 Nf3e5 Nb8c6 Bf1b5 Bc8d7 Ne5xd7 Qd8xd7
9/32+ 00:05 1.319.782 347.311 +0.32 Bc1g5 d7d5
9/32 00:06 1.617.778 359.506 +0.32 Ng1f3 d7d5 e4xd5 Ng8f6 Bc1g5 Nf6xd5 Nf3e5 Nb8c6 Bf1b5 Bc8d7 Ne5xd7 Qd8xd7
10/36 00:09 3.191.137 384.474 +0.25 Ng1f3 d7d5 e4xd5 Ng8f6 Bc1g5 Nf6xd5 c2c4 Nd5b4 Qd1a4+ Nb8c6 Nb1c3
10/36+ 00:11 3.874.868 383.650 +0.25 Bf1d3 d7d6
10/36 00:12 4.391.871 392.131 +0.25 Ng1f3 d7d5 e4xd5 Ng8f6 Bc1g5 Nf6xd5 c2c4 Nd5b4 Qd1a4+ Nb8c6 Nb1c3
11/40 00:26 9.506.791 380.271 +0.35 Ng1f3 d7d5 e4xd5 Ng8f6 Bc1g5 Nf6xd5 Nf3e5 c7c6 Bf1d3 Nb8d7 Ne5c4
12/41 00:50 19.453.149 398.630 +0.32 Ng1f3 d7d5 e4xd5 Ng8f6 Nf3e5 Nf6xd5 Qd1f3 Nd5f6 Bf1c4 e7e6 Bc1g5 Bf8b4+ c2c3
12/44+ 01:27 36.142.969 419.778 +0.32 Bc1f4 e7e6
12/49 01:39 41.587.373 425.228 +0.32 Ng1f3 d7d5 e4xd5 Ng8f6 Nf3e5 Nf6xd5 Qd1f3 Nd5f6 Bf1c4 e7e6 Bc1g5 Bf8b4+ c2c3
12/49+ 01:52 47.141.719 423.555 +0.32 Nb1c3 e7e6
12/49 01:59 49.672.376 422.025 +0.32 Ng1f3 d7d5 e4xd5 Ng8f6 Nf3e5 Nf6xd5 Qd1f3 Nd5f6 Bf1c4 e7e6 Bc1g5 Bf8b4+ c2c3
13/50 02:45 68.572.820 419.149 +0.44 Ng1f3 d7d5 e4xd5 Ng8f6 Nf3e5 Nf6xd5 Qd1f3 Nd5f6 Bf1c4 e7e6 Bc1g5 Nb8d7 Ne5xd7 Bc8xd7 Qf3xb7
14/52 07:15 175.255.978 403.815 +0.35 Ng1f3 d7d5 e4xd5 Ng8f6 Bf1b5+ Bc8d7 Bb5c4 b7b5 Bc4d3 Nf6xd5 Bc1g5 a7a5 Nf3e5 Nd5b4 Bd3e4
7/25/2005 7:59:02 PM, Time for this analysis: 00:10:00, Rated time: 10:00

0 of 1 matching moves
7/25/2005 7:59:02 PM, Total time: 12:40:40 AM
Rated time: 10:00 = 600 Seconds

Posted: **26 Jul 2005, 04:10**

Analysis from E:\what.epd
7/25/2005 7:18:22 PM Level: Infinite
Analyzing engine: DeepSjeng 1.6

1) - 0 1
Avoid move:
Best move (DeepSjeng 1.6): Nb1-c3
Not found in: 10:00
3/5 00:00 496 0 -1.04 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 Ng1f3
4/7 00:00 794 0 -1.31 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 Ng1f3 Ng8f6
5/9 00:00 1.607 0 -1.06 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 Ng1f3 Ng8f6 Bc1f4
6/16 00:00 6.832 0 -1.25 Nb1c3 Nb8c6 d4d5 Nc6b4 Bc1e3 a7a5
7/17 00:00 21.566 0 -1.13 Nb1c3 d7d6 Ng1f3 Nb8c6 Bc1d2 e7e5 Nc3b5 e5xd4 Nb5xd4 Nc6xd4 Nf3xd4
8/20 00:00 59.422 0 -1.20 Nb1c3 d7d6 Bc1e3 Ng8f6 Ng1f3 Bc8g4 Bf1b5+ Nb8c6 00
9/24 00:00 217.956 0 -1.12 Nb1c3 d7d6 Bc1e3 Ng8f6 Bf1e2 Nb8a6 Ng1f3 Nf6g4 Be3f4
10/26 00:01 526.672 0 -1.12 Nb1c3 d7d6 Bc1e3 Ng8f6 d4d5 a7a5 Ng1f3 Bc8d7 Bf1c4 Bd7g4
11/27 00:04 1.577.559 350.847 -1.08 Nb1c3 d7d6 Ng1f3 Bc8g4 d4d5 Ng8f6 Bc1e3 c7c5 Bf1b5+ Nb8d7 00 e7e5
12/31 00:10 3.654.372 342.495 -1.16 Nb1c3 d7d6 Bc1e3 Ng8f6 d4d5 c7c5 Ng1f3 Bc8g4 Bf1b5+ Nb8d7 00 a7a6 Bb5e2
12/33 00:19 7.322.220 363.315 -1.13 Ng1f3 e7e6 Nb1c3 Bf8b4 Bc1d2 Nb8c6 Bf1d3 d7d6 d4d5 e6xd5 e4xd5 Qd8e7+ Ke1f1 Bb4xc3 Bd2xc3
13/36 00:28 10.547.394 376.801 -1.14 Ng1f3 e7e6 Nb1c3 Bf8b4 Bc1d2 Nb8c6 Bf1d3 d7d6 d4d5 Nc6e7 Qd1e2 e6xd5 e4xd5 Ng8f6
14/37 01:12 27.540.611 376.776 -1.15 Ng1f3 e7e6 Nb1c3 Bf8b4 Bc1d2 Nb8c6 Bf1d3 d7d6 e4e5 d6xe5 d4xe5 Ng8h6 Qd1e2 Nc6d4 Qe2e4
14/40 02:06 47.090.641 383.067 -1.09 Nb1c3 d7d6 Bf1e2 g7g6 Ng1f3 Bf8g7 Bc1e3 Bc8d7 Qd1d2 a7a5 d4d5 Ng8f6 e4e5 Nf6g4
15/41 03:18 76.197.435 378.432 -1.11 Nb1c3 d7d6 Bf1e2 g7g6 Ng1f3 Bf8g7 Bc1e3 Bc8d7 Qd1d2 Nb8c6 d4d5 Nc6b4 00 a7a5 Nf3g5 h7h6
7/25/2005 8:09:44 PM, Time for this analysis: 00:10:00, Rated time: 10:00

0 of 1 matching moves
7/25/2005 8:09:45 PM, Total time: 12:51:22 AM
Rated time: 10:00 = 600 Seconds

Posted: **26 Jul 2005, 08:25**

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies so far. Just for fun, I played a blitz game (4+1) between Glaurung 0.2.5u (who thinks white has the advantage) and Glaurung 0.2.4 (who thinks black is better):

Code: Select all: [Event "Computer chess game"] [Site "aload.uio.no"] [Date "2005.07.25"] [Round "-"] [White "Glaurung 0.2.5u"] [Black "Glaurung 0.2.4"] [Result "1-0"] [TimeControl "240+1"] [FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/8/1PP2PP1/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"] [SetUp "1"] {-------------- r n b q k b n r p p p p p p p p . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . P P . . . . . . . . . . . . P P . . P P . R N B Q K B N R white to play --------------} 1. Nf3 d6 2. Nc3 Bg4 3. Qd3 c6 4. Ng5 Nf6 5. Qg3 h5 6. Qf4 Be6 7. Bd3 Qd7 8. Bd2 g6 9. e5 Nh7 10. Nge4 Qd8 11. Kf1 Rg8 12. exd6 exd6 13. Re1 d5 14. Nc5 Bxc5 15. dxc5 Qe7 16. Na4 Na6 17. Ba5 Ng5 18. Qe3 Ne4 19. Bxe4 dxe4 20. Qxe4 Nxc5 21. Qd4 Nxa4 22. Qxa4 Qg5 23. Kg1 Qb5 24. Qa2 Qf5 25. Qa4 Qg5 26. Bc7 Qd2 27. Qe4 Rc8 28. Bf4 Qa5 29. Rh3 Qc5 30. Rb3 Qe7 31. Qd4 a6 32. Qa7 b6 33. Qxa6 Rd8 34. Rxb6 g5 35. Be5 h4 36. Rb7 Bd7 37. Bc3 Qxe1+ {Black resigns} 1-0

This doesn't prove anything at all, of course, except that white has a serious and lasting inititiative. The lowest score I saw for white in this game was around -0.2.

Winboard Forum

How do you evaluate this position?

How do you evaluate this position?

Re: How do you evaluate this position?

Re: How do you evaluate this position?

Re: How do you evaluate this position?

Re: How do you evaluate this position?

Re: How do you evaluate this position?

Fruit sees it about even

Re: How do you evaluate this position?

Gandalf says

Deep Sjeng

Re: How do you evaluate this position?