Winboard Forum

Although I understand the reasons of the decision, and I think real life comes first, that's the heaviest loss, together with Leo's decision, for CC Community. The two events I always supported are going. These are the two events clone free, where original programs could honestly compete and I think many improvements for engines came from games of CW.

All is needed in order to get Chesswar running again is a group of volunteers which operates under Olivier supervision and in respect of Chesswar rules. I offer myself for running one series with my i7 2630 QM. All I need is some basic training about Winboard GUI, scheduling utility and broadcasting. I'd be away most of time because of work, but I don't think it should be an issue. And of course I'd need the engines for that series (e.g Chesswar C engines).

Olivier, could it be acceptable?

Any other volunteer for running next Chesswar?

Rodolfo (The Baron Tean)

Hi Rodolfo

I like the idea. If a team is found, I'm ready to give away all my tricks, and I would help with private engines by asking permission on behalf of the new team.

Of course the members of the team should be selected with care. Otherwise some nobodies would enter the team and just run away with the private engines.

Dear Rodolfo, feel free to post your offer on other places.

Olivier

Hi All

May be fonzy can run the promo tourney

Pity, the end of CW and WBEC come when I restart some
work on Yoda ...

Rodolfo Leoni wrote:The two events I always supported are going. These are the two events clone free, where original programs could honestly compete

And how do you know that all those engines are "original" without subjecting them all to extensive investigation ? And how do you define "original" ?

I think you're kidding yourself if you think all those engines are "original" however you define that. Any list which purports to be for just "original" engines is giving a false picture unless you have proof of originality. Of course I believe in innocent until proven guilty, but if you are specifically stating to your audience that the engines are "original" then you need to be able to back that statement up.

Both Chesswar and WBEC admit only engines which come from author work. Both events have rules and standards for deciding which engines are allowed to participate. It's not to me to say what's original and what's not. But philosophy of both events is that clones must be excluded and, when an engine is found to be a clone, it's kicked out.

You want an extensive study on each engine before allowing it to participate? That'd take decades.

Rodolfo Leoni wrote:It's not to me to say what's original and what's not.

Then, don't mislead your audience by saying that the lists are for "original" engines only. Don't say that ChessWar and WBEC are for "original" engines only when you DO NOT KNOW

Rodolfo Leoni wrote:But philosophy of both events is that clones must be excluded and, when an engine is found to be a clone, it's kicked out.

Found by who ??? And by what criteria ? Who do you believe ?

In the case of Rybka for example, The ICGA so-called evidence regarding Fruit has been torn to shreds by experts and shown to be simply wrong in many cases. Can I refer you to Ed Ed Schroder's extensive web site here:

http://www.top-5000.nl/Rybka.htm

So, you choose which experts you want to believe ? You ARE taking a judgement even though you are saying you are not.

Give us a list of all engines which have been "FOUND" to be clones and which you have excluded, and on what evidence you have done so.

That's really annoying. I've never been part of Chesswar before. Chesswar is an exclusive property of Olivier Deville and I can change nothing about his rules and decisions. If this new Chesswar must become a revolution of standards, i retire my offer to be part of such a group.

Rybka.... anti Rybka... clones.... it doesn't concern me anyway. I launched an idea without being its leader, nor now and in future. The starting tourney is the Promo Tournament, for those who'll subscribe. I guess many will be admitted, some will be excluded. Not by me.

This is NOT the place for the Rybka war, anyway.

It concerns *ALL* engines. As soon as Olivier claims that his list is for "original" engines, then the whole subject is opened up.

So the question is for Olivier:

-Give us a list of all engines which you have excluded because you think they are clones, and tell us what expert evidence you have relied on, and if you have considered counter-evidence to the contrary. And if there is credible counter-evidence, how you have formed your opinion as to who is right.

-Give us a guarantee that all engines that you say are "original" actually are

-Define "original"

Tuvoc wrote:It concerns *ALL* engines. As soon as Olivier claims that his list is for "original" engines, then the whole subject is opened up.

So the question is for Olivier:

-Give us a list of all engines which you have excluded because you think they are clones, and tell us what expert evidence you have relied on, and if you have considered counter-evidence to the contrary. And if there is credible counter-evidence, how you have formed your opinion as to who is right.

-Give us a guarantee that all engines that you say are "original" actually are

-Define "original"

What is this about at all???
It obviously only concerns Chesswar.
I and others are not overly concerned about the "rights" of (cloned) engines.
Engines can always be removed or added from tournaments,they won't even notice.

It is obviously all about:

ChessWar claims to be a tournament for "original" engines only.

It is only right to question the criteria for inclusion of engines.


Hypothetical comversation:

Interviewer:
Olivier, so you tournaments are for original engines only

Olivier:
Yes

Interviewer:
So Engine X in your tournaments is original

Olivier:
I assume so yes

Interviewer:
Oh, so you don't know, it could be a clone ?

Olivier:
Well yes, it hasn't been checked

Interviewer:
Oh, so in fact you don't know if all the engines on the list are original ?

Olivier:
Well, no

Interviewer:
So you can't claim that your list contains only original engines ?

Olivier:
Well, no

Tuvoc wrote:It is obviously all about:

ChessWar claims to be a tournament for "original" engines only.

It is only right to question the criteria for inclusion of engines.

Really? depends on who is asking.
Is the public going to decide what chesswar is?
Don't think so.

Who is going to do the double checking for you anyway?
Soren Piss and Andrew Dalek,the "Copyright Specialist"?
They failed.

ChessWar claims to be a tournament for "original" engines only. it has to be able to demonstrate effective criteria and evaluation of engines for the implementation of that policy. It can't so it should stop claiming to be something it isn't. ChessWar could be riddled with derivatives and you wouldn't know it.

Far better to just say "Engines are included on the sole discretion of the tournament organiser, and any decision is final". Everyone would be happy with that. I'd be happy with that. It is clear and unarguable.

As for your obvious reference to Rybka - the ICGA case has been thoroughly discredited by a number of experts in the field. But this is not about Rybka. It is about ALL engines.

Tuvoc wrote:ChessWar claims to be a tournament for "original" engines only. it has to be able to demonstrate effective criteria and evaluation of engines for the implementation of that policy. It can't so it should stop claiming to be something it isn't. ChessWar could be riddled with derivatives and you wouldn't know it.

I think "claim" is a bit strongworded?But yes,we do our best.

Far better to just say "Engines are included on the sole discretion of the tournament organiser, and any decision is final". Everyone would be happy with that. I'd be happy with that. It is clear and unarguable.

As for your obvious reference to Rybka - the ICGA case has been thoroughly discredited by a number of experts in the field. But this is not about Rybka. It is about ALL engines.

You make the impression that you don't want any engine to be labeled as unoriginal,clone or otherwise.

F. Bluemers wrote:You make the impression that you don't want any engine to be labelled as unoriginal,clone or otherwise.

By labelling some engines as clones you are implying that the rest are NOT clones, and that is misleading because you just don't know. Yet, you don't have time to investigate every single engine. So yes I'm effectively saying that you should not label anything a clone or derivative, because by deduction you are saying that the rest are not.

Also, to label something as unoriginal or clone, you need a very high standard of proof in my opinion. Preferably that is an investigation supervised by a court of law, overseen by a judge, following proper legal process, and with truly independent experts. Of course this just isn't going to happen either.

So just avoid the issue altogether as I said. Test what you want to test, don't test what you don't want to test, and don't mention the words "original" or "clone".

Tuvoc wrote:

F. Bluemers wrote:You make the impression that you don't want any engine to be labelled as unoriginal,clone or otherwise.

By labelling some engines as clones you are implying that the rest are NOT clones, and that is misleading because you just don't know. Yet, you don't have time to investigate every single engine. So yes I'm effectively saying that you should not label anything a clone or derivative, because by deduction you are saying that the rest are not.

Also, to label something as unoriginal or clone, you need a very high standard of proof in my opinion. Preferably that is an investigation supervised by a court of law, overseen by a judge, following proper legal process, and with truly independent experts. Of course this just isn't going to happen either.

So just avoid the issue altogether as I said. Test what you want to test, don't test what you don't want to test, and don't mention the words "original" or "clone".

yeah,just keep posting non-arguments.

I don't see any labeling anywhere,if it's because an engine is included in chesswar it just means chesswar is something special.
your advice,keep it,its not needed nor do we care about it.
And if you want to cry for clones(Rybka==Crafty) because they can't for themselves,have the decency to do it somewhere else.

Fonzy for President!!

OK, I'll be available to run one class or two where The Baron is not participating. That means I'm not available for Chesswar B and, possibly, Chesswar A if Baron promotes.

Who else is willing to run a Chesswar Tourney?