Tinkering with Winboard

[Alessandro Scotti]

Alessandro, I am a bit confused, now. AFAIK Winboard/Xboard GUIs are written in C. Do you intend to add GUI stuff in Delphi? Is this easily possible? Will it work under Linux, other Unices, Freebsd, Mac?

Yes, my idea is to implement the GUI in a separate DLL, so it can be written in any language. It won't be portable, but neither is the current GUI after all, and writing a GUI in C is usually as pleasant as a thorn in the back. Anyway there is a free version of Delphi for Linux named Kylix, maybe that could be used for the Linux port too. But this is just an idea of course, if the GUI is simple enough it could also be programmed in C.

[Dann Corbit]

The typical rock and a hard place.

Java is fully portable, but you cannot link in external modules.

There is no truly portable GUI that can interface with other tasks.

[Tord Romstad]

I'm very interested in UCI, as I would like to add it to Kiwi too (because it's the native protocol of Sigma chess for Mac).

I personally don't like Sigma Chess at all, but at the moment there are unfortunately no better alternatives for Mac OS X (I use xboard, but it will of course never be usable for the average Mac user). I hope the upcoming Shredder GUI will be better.

Unfortunately I don't know a thing about that protocol, but I will be very happy to help or assist you in anything you may need with the Winboard code. I think having UCI in Winboard will be just GREAT!

A stupid question: What's the point? My engine is UCI only, and xboard is the only GUI I use regularly, but I have never missed direct UCI support in xboard. PolyGlot solves all my problems.

Java is fully portable, but you cannot link in external modules.

It is "fully portable" only in a rather limited sense. You can write Java GUI apps which sort of work in all the major platforms, but there is a problem: Your apps will not look and feel like native GUI applications on the majority of platforms. Java programs in Mac OS X look ugly and completely out of place. It is slightly better than running X11 apps, but not much.

All other cross-platform GUI toolkits suffer from the same problems, of course.

Tord

[Fabien Letouzey]

Hi all,

Interesting to note that I missed the fact that this thread was evolving because it is sticky! Like some carnivores, I only see things that move ...

How is Polyglot handling this?

Just like other xboard engines, by reading a text file!
Of course, somebody can write a GUI to create such INI-like files.
It has been done for WinBoard if I understood correctly.

Fabien.

[Pallav Nawani]

Hi all,
Interesting to note that I missed the fact that this thread was evolving because it is sticky! Like some carnivores, I only see things that move ...
Fabien.

You can check only the new posts by visiting this URL:
http://volker-pittlik.name/wbforum/sear ... d=newposts

bye,
Pallav

[Anonymous]

Fabien:

>Interesting to note that I missed the fact that this thread was evolving
>because it is sticky! Like some carnivores, I only see things that
>move ...

Same here.

>>How is Polyglot handling this?

>Just like other xboard engines, by reading a text file!

I guessed so. Of course this seems the only way with reasonable small work. What I wanted to note: The typical UCI options of an engine might be not so suited to ini-file editing, than the typical WB-engine would do it. The UCI engine would probably try, to give as descriptive option names/values as possible. The WB engine would use someting more terse.

For example in Yace I have:

option name Endgame-Database Usage type combo default Normal var Never var Only at root var Very Low var Low var Normal var High

I probably could not be able to correctly type

setoption name Endgame-Database Usage var Only at root

without a few tries Or looking up the source code, to copy and paste it to the ini file (it would work like this in the WB-mode, too). Instead I type

tb_u 1

Cheers,
Dieter

[Anonymous]

You can check only the new posts by visiting this URL:
http://volker-pittlik.name/wbforum/sear ... d=newposts

Is there a way, to really jump directly to new posts (in contrast to jump to a thread, that has new posts). For example I tried just now, and got this thread as a result. Now I have to jump to the end of page 3, and I am close to where I want to be. Still I have to judge, which posts of this long thread are new to me.

Cheers,
Dieter

[Pallav Nawani]

You can check only the new posts by visiting this URL:
http://volker-pittlik.name/wbforum/sear ... d=newposts

Is there a way, to really jump directly to new posts (in contrast to jump to a thread, that has new posts).
Cheers,
Dieter

I don't know of such a way, sorry. It is probably doable though, as Php BB is already keeping track of the new posts anyway.
bye,
Pallav

[Fabien Letouzey]

For example in Yace I have:

option name Endgame-Database Usage type combo default Normal var Never var Only at root var Very Low var Low var Normal var High

I probably could not be able to correctly type

setoption name Endgame-Database Usage var Only at root

without a few tries :-) Or looking up the source code, to copy and paste it to the ini file (it would work like this in the WB-mode, too). Instead I type

tb_u 1

I use INI-like syntax, which helps a tiny bit. The user would type Endgame-Database Usage = Only at root. It is so easy to forget "name" while typing UCI commands.

Something I can now easily add (since I actually build a list of engine-supported options) is to create a "dummy" INI file (in fact the [Engine] section) with all default options (removing things like UCI_*). Say with alternative values in a comment for combo boxes.

Fabien.

[Marc Lacrosse]

Dear Fabien and Dieter

In my view, adjusting options of UCI engines in Polyglot (or UCI2WB) is already feasible through the ini files so it is not the most urgently desired feature to have a more user-friendly way to perform the adjustment.
At the opposite, most UCI engines rely on the GUI for book operations (I know that Yace is a brilliant exception !) and what I miss mostly is some kind of book management by polyglot.
I read somewhere that you intended to add book-features to Polyglot.
Did you progress in this way ?

regards

Marc

PS bookthinker is not a satisfying answer for book management; not only its use is a pain, but it cruelly lacks user-book features like the ones of crafty, yace or rebel (to name a few).

[Anonymous]

I use INI-like syntax, which helps a tiny bit. The user would type Endgame-Database Usage = Only at root. It is so easy to forget "name" while typing UCI commands.

Something I can now easily add (since I actually build a list of engine-supported options) is to create a "dummy" INI file (in fact the [Engine] section) with all default options (removing things like UCI_*). Say with alternative values in a comment for combo boxes.

Fabien, just to clarify, I in no way wanted to critisize the way you do it. I guess you didn't understand it like that either.

Yes, with "INI-like" synthax, it will be easier. I have to admit, that I really do not know Polyglot (I know, its function). I do not need it for my engine, and recently did not use any other engine, that would need it (or I used the other engine inside some UCI supporting GUI).

Your idea of the dummy INI file sounds good, and will almost solve the point I raised. You probably would also need to get rid of button options - they seem to be purely interactive in nature. At the moment, I cannot think of any button type option, that could make sense without the ability to interactively use it.

Cheers,
Dieter

[Dann Corbit]

There is a polyglot version that has book management.

I do not recall if it is public or beta, because I have the source in my polyglot_x directory, so I am not sure if it was ever formally released.

[Volker Pittlik]

There is a polyglot version that has book management.

I do not recall if it is public or beta, because I have the source in my polyglot_x directory, so I am not sure if it was ever formally released.

IIRC it is not public so far. According to my tests it works pretty well.

Volker

[Marc Lacrosse]

Dann Corbit wrote:
There is a polyglot version that has book management.

Is it possible to get a copy of it ?

What kind of book management does it allow?

Only "large base book" or also user-defined lines ?

Thanks
Marc

[Fabien Letouzey]

At the opposite, most UCI engines rely on the GUI for book operations (I know that Yace is a brilliant exception !) and what I miss mostly is some kind of book management by polyglot.

I read somewhere that you intended to add book-features to Polyglot.
Did you progress in this way ?

PS bookthinker is not a satisfying answer for book management; not only its use is a pain, but it cruelly lacks user-book features like the ones of crafty, yace or rebel (to name a few)

There is an experimental version that supports only NAIVE book making, I am afraid not as good as BookThinker. I had in mind to improve it before a release but then switched on to working on something else (that was in February).

It is now clear: I will release that version "as is" (but stable) next week, and try to improve things only afterwards.

Basically I don't want to spend time researching opening-book heuristics.
However, if one (yes that's YOU) tells me EXACTLY what he wants, I can do it hopefully in little time. Please open a thread in that case, thanks.

As an example, Leo mentionned a heuristics regarding minimum win % (separate for white and black, e.g. 50 and 45) for moves with many games (say at least 100 or 1000).

I have nothing against user books, just make sure I can figure out EXACT move probability from your data (you tell me how).

However I fail to see in which way PolyGlot would be easier to use than BookThinker.

Fabien.

[Fabien Letouzey]

IIRC it is not public so far. According to my tests it works pretty well.

Hi Volker,

Have you got new data since February?

Fabien.

[Fabien Letouzey]

Is it possible to get a copy of it ?
What kind of book management does it allow?
Only "large base book" or also user-defined lines ?

Hi ?arc,

Dann or Volker please send a version to him (with text file).
It handles only PGN-based random book, mostly based on popularity.

Fabien.

[Volker Pittlik]

...
Have you got new data since February?

Fabien.

Sorry, due to personal circumstances I took a break (till now) .

Volker

[Volker Pittlik]

...

Dann or Volker please send a version to him (with text file).
...

Done.

[Marc Lacrosse]

...

Dann or Volker please send a version to him (with text file).
...

Done.

Many thanks to both!
I will have a look at it as soon as possible.

Marc