new/updated engines

[Norman Schmidt]

...
Myself, Zach, Bob, Christophe, etc...

You are playing in that league?
yes


The chess engine community...

And you are their spokesman?
no

[Graham Banks]

Oh, I see....

No Chessbase, no 3000+ Elo rating, no dominance on the rating list so no respect.

Apart from the increasingly obvious personal grudge you seem to have against me now, you also obviously think that I care only for strong engines and the Chessbase GUI.
For your information, Dolphin plays at about a 2800 elo level, hardly weak.
You also conveniently tend to forget about my continued espousal of ChessGUI and extensive testing of amateur engines.
I think things are getting to the stage where I might have to take a break from here soon (not that you'll care I'm sure).

With regards to the Dolphin issue, I made my original statement based on observations from a regarded expert in clone detection.
You're right in that I should have held off until proof could have been presented along with such a statement, and you're right in that I was critical of your friends for not doing the same thing regarding Rybka 1.0.
For that alone, I apologise to Anthony at this stage. Let's see what happens from here (and please no personal grudge stuff).

[Olivier Deville]

Hi Olivier,

Sure i will send you book enabled exe + the book itself,

But lets get through this investigations that you are doing,Lets finish this,

As soon as you are done with realizing that Dolphin is indeed programmed by me,I will gladly let it take part in your tournaments with its book of course.

Could you keep everyone here in the light by telling how far have you & the team gone with the investigations.
I request you to kindly do this as first priority please,as I need to get a clean flag from you & then get established ratings,which you & CCRL,as required by Charles Roberson & N.Swaminathan for the CCT 2009.

Swami himself had suggested me CCRL ,even before i wrote him the mail with my registration,but here is what I got from Graham.

Please do the needful,& please do it asap.

Thanks,
Anthony

Hi Anthony

I am glad to inform you that we are making progress

An announcement will be made very soon.

Olivier

[Roger Brown]

Apart from the increasingly obvious personal grudge you seem to have against me now, you also obviously think that I care only for strong engines and the Chessbase GUI.

Sigh. This is typical of you Graham. Smoke and more smoke. You are not sufficiently meaningful to me or what I do for me to take anything you do personally. There is absolutely nothing about you that would cause me to begrudge or carry a grudge. You just are not that important to me so try this nonsense somewhere else where it might find some purchase.

For your information, Dolphin plays at about a 2800 elo level, hardly weak.
You also conveniently tend to forget about my continued espousal of ChessGUI and extensive testing of amateur engines.
I think things are getting to the stage where I might have to take a break from here soon (not that you'll care I'm sure).

Stay or go, I really do not care. It is amusing to me that I quit posting at various fora several for years and what happened - absolutely nothing. No disasters broke out. Not even a query where is Roger?

With regards to the Dolphin issue, I made my original statement based on observations from a regarded expert in clone detection.
You're right in that I should have held off until proof could have been presented along with such a statement, and you're right in that I was critical of your friends for not doing the same thing regarding Rybka 1.0.
For that alone, I apologise to Anthony at this stage. Let's see what happens from here (and please no personal grudge stuff).

I cannot believe it, so you do understand what I was saying!

For a moment there....

The apology has been made as appropriate. That is all that is important to me in what you have written above. No-one, particularly someone who has been as vociferous as you have been when other engines are concerned, is going to get away with careless postings in this Forum that you would not tolerate elsewhere.

For the record, I would have been much harder on Gabor or Guenther if they had posted as you did. That would have been personal because I would have expected better of them and I would have told them so.

Personal grudge stufff.....oh please get over yourself Graham!

[Olivier Deville]

Are there other forums ? In that case wars that took place outside this forum should not interfere with our debates here on the Winboard Forum.

Graham's contribution is much appreciated and I'd like him to stay.

Roger, you are very right in keeping this place clean from unfounded accusations. Let's now concentrate on our Dolphin case.

Olivier

[Roger Brown]

Are there other forums ? In that case wars that took place outside this forum should not interfere with our debates here on the Winboard Forum.

Hmmmm....I think you may need to repeat that.

Graham's contribution is much appreciated and I'd like him to stay.

Shrug. He can do as he likes but he - and everyone else so inclined - keeps the carelessness out. Or I will be on them like white on rice.

Roger, you are very right in keeping this place clean from unfounded accusations. Let's now concentrate on our Dolphin case.

Just doing my job sir.


Later.

[antzmatt]

Hi Olivier,

That is indeed a good news.

Graham,I or no one here doubts your good will to promote amateurs etc,but what i see is that they are just complaining about the possible double standards that you came up with.

Anyway,You post that "Observatons...." Can you put/state those 'observations' here??

Which chess program does Dolphin even resemble to? I guess being the same is a clone,& Dolphin doesn't even resemble any other program.

Olivier Zach & Daniel if you are reading,please start posting, I hate these "Observations from unknown person' statements,who ever it is,come out & post it in public,I am defending myself in public,I offered my executable to be investigated by a team chosen by YOU.

So those experts who have got Dolphin without my knowledge,this is bad to start with,Graham if you had asked me permission nicely,via a email,i would not stop you.need to start coming out in public & state their 'observations' that proved to them that Dolphin is a clone beyond any doubt.

And they can not do so,please write these 'experts' off the decision making places,if you make decision that will harm others,learn to take responsibility & if you can not do so & just casually remark on engines,you do not deserve to be there,you need to take the job seriously & indeed look through the exe, & only then start this crap.

Prove it or move it now,let the process pick up speed.

Anthony

[H.G.Muller]

Let's suppose innocence first. If it is a clone, we will find out sooner or later.

Isn't this a bit naive / in denial of reality?

If in practice, 80% of the new 2000+ engines sent to Olivier by unknown authors are clones, and 98% of the new 2600+ engines, wouldn't it be logical to suppose that a new engine is a clone unless it can be proven differently?

To do it the other way around seems an almost certain recipe for wasting your time...

Putting the burden of proof for originality on the author is not like putting him in jail or on the chair, so it is not nearly so compelling to presume innocense first as it is in criminal justice. Having to send source code to a trusted person like Olivier is a request with which a genuine author can comply extremely easily.

[Tuvoc]

My stance is this: there is a suspicion that this might be a clone. Before spending hundreds of hours of CPU time running matches, you want to be sure that they are games that you can keep and that will be of value to the chess community. So, for me it is a "wait and see" approach, given that suspicions have been raised, I'd rather wait until the situation is resolved one way or the other.

[antzmatt]

H.G.Muller, I see my only mistake is that i waited too long till Dolphin was given to testing...

With your logic isn't it possible that a real engine,which happens to be above 2600 ratings,will have to face all this & a clone for that matter below 2000,say 1600 ratings,might have even got away? with your logic it is very well possible.

If so then lets put a committee,that will consist of experts & every single engine,irrespective of strength be tested out from them & we would then accept only engine flagged clean by this committee?

I am not against proving my originality,I never was.

The exe has been with respective experts who are looking at it.although i personally expected the experts to come with conclusion very fast,but as Olivier said the announcement will come soon & I am waiting for that,I am not against this process & I don't feel as a burden,but it a engine is not a clone,the experts are supposed to be consulted before posting stuff like "We got this engine to test & its a clone,why,because it is 2800 rated" which is what i see now from what Graham posted,I do not know who Tuvoc is,but what i understand is that he might be the 'expert' that Graham mentioned.

H.G.Muller to you Olivier maybe the person to trust for everything,you might even give him control of your bank accounts,because you maybe know him well enough,I dont & i do not want to take the risk,He has the exe,he is looking into it,he is free to post what he sees,so lets wait for that.

So Tuvoc i suppose you are a CCRL team member,You had suspicions you could have mailed me,we could have done this investigations privately, but if you are suspicious isn't it better to confirm or refute the issues that are in your mind??

If I made a mistake in understanding someone's post I am sorry,please get that to my notice.

Anthony

[Norman Schmidt]

Let's suppose innocence first. If it is a clone, we will find out sooner or later.

Isn't this a bit naive / in denial of reality?

If in practice, 80% of the new 2000+ engines sent to Olivier by unknown authors are clones, and 98% of the new 2600+ engines, wouldn't it be logical to suppose that a new engine is a clone unless it can be proven differently?

To do it the other way around seems an almost certain recipe for wasting your time...

Putting the burden of proof for originality on the author is not like putting him in jail or on the chair, so it is not nearly so compelling to presume innocense first as it is in criminal justice. Having to send source code to a trusted person like Olivier is a request with which a genuine author can comply extremely easily.

for many years new engines were simply accepted. many new engines (hundreds) were released and quickly became well established...their source code was never (and will never be) demanded for inspection.

thus, i'm confident (and it's very likely) that there are 'accepted' engines out there now utilizing code that is not 100% original...

so, if one engine needs to send source code, than all engines should have do the same...IMHO rybka and other commercials included.

[Tuvoc]

So Tuvoc i suppose you are a CCRL team member,You had suspicions you could have mailed me,we could have done this investigations privately, but if you are suspicious isn't it better to confirm or refute the issues that are in your mind??

If I made a mistake in understanding someone's post I am sorry,please get that to my notice.

Anthony

I did not say I had suspicions. I am not an expert in these things. All I said was that because other people have suspicions, I am going to hold off running games for now, to await the outcome either way of all this.

[Christopher Conkie]

If I made a mistake in understanding someone's post I am sorry,please get that to my notice.

Code: Select all

.rdata:004ACFC0 0000002E C Fehler: connect gescheitert, fehler code: %d\n

Christopher

[Guenther Simon]

Let's suppose innocence first. If it is a clone, we will find out sooner or later.

Isn't this a bit naive / in denial of reality?

If in practice, 80% of the new 2000+ engines sent to Olivier by unknown authors are clones, and 98% of the new 2600+ engines, wouldn't it be logical to suppose that a new engine is a clone unless it can be proven differently?

To do it the other way around seems an almost certain recipe for wasting your time...

Putting the burden of proof for originality on the author is not like putting him in jail or on the chair, so it is not nearly so compelling to presume innocense first as it is in criminal justice. Having to send source code to a trusted person like Olivier is a request with which a genuine author can comply extremely easily.

for many years new engines were simply accepted. many new engines (hundreds) were released and quickly became well established...their source code was never (and will never be) demanded for inspection.

thus, i'm confident (and it's very likely) that there are 'accepted' engines out there now utilizing code that is not 100% original...

so, if one engine needs to send source code, than all engines should have do the same...IMHO rybka and other commercials included.

I really wonder why you are so obsessed with that topic. If I would be you, I would be silent at least for a year.
The way you are always involved in clone discussions now overshadows your very slight apology which I cannot even
remember anymore, because of your 'activities' against Rybka and against programmers of weaker programs.
I have to repeat that you were one of only three people so far who did not even shamelessly clone,
but also tried to make money out of it. I have not seen one post so far about programming issues from your side, neither here nor in CCC...

Be assured that there were enough people around who cared a lot if programs were clones independent of any strength issue at least since
I follow the scene in 2000/2001.
Thus there were still much more clones of TSCP, Gerbil and Faile discovered then for all much stronger clones together.
You completely failed to understand HG's statistical comment, because it had nada to do with a difference in scrutiny in relation to strength!

Guenther

[F. Bluemers]

If I made a mistake in understanding someone's post I am sorry,please get that to my notice.

Code: Select all

.rdata:004ACFC0 0000002E C Fehler: connect gescheitert, fehler code: %d\n

Christopher

eh,that's Indian,no?

[Christopher Conkie]

If I made a mistake in understanding someone's post I am sorry,please get that to my notice.

Code: Select all

.rdata:004ACFC0 0000002E C Fehler: connect gescheitert, fehler code: %d\n

Christopher

eh,that's Indian,no?

Ja.



Christopher

[Tuvoc]

Maybe he is fluent in German ?

[Graham Banks]

Maybe he is fluent in German ?

Yeah - most Indians are.

[Tuvoc]

Maybe he is fluent in German ?

Yeah - most Indians are.

Not most, but some no doubt are.

[Don Cross]

If I made a mistake in understanding someone's post I am sorry,please get that to my notice.

Code: Select all

.rdata:004ACFC0 0000002E C Fehler: connect gescheitert, fehler code: %d\n

Christopher

For what it's worth, I did a little Google searching and found this exact error message here in a source code print statement:
http://www.governmentsecurity.org/archive/t9820.html

And a very similar string "Fehler: Connect gescheitert, Fehlercode: %d\n" here:
http://board.gulli.com/thread/808122-c- ... d-strings/

And here:
http://entwickler-forum.de/archive/inde ... -4611.html

In every single case, the code has something to do with a failed Winsock connection.

Not speaking German, my best guess at translation to English for this message is:
"Error: Connection failed, error code: %d"

This does not seem to be evidence of anything other than someone copy-n-pasting some sample network socket code from German-language source code samples. I would say this is neither evidence for nor against this engine being a clone. It is definitely not chess-related code.

- Don