Fischer Random Chess

[Dave Neve]

Hello

There is a chess game on Agamator's website and I think it is a Fischer Random Chess (FRC) game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcrqQBaxw7k

I've copied the moves from the above website, I set Winboard to variant FRC (I've tried others as well), paste the game into Winboard via Edit>paste game from clipboard" but every time the game starts, I get an illegal move warning and then even if I try to continue, Winboard soon refuses to move the pieces.

so my question is obviously along the lines of what type of variant is this and how to get the game into Winboard.

Thanks

[H.G.Muller]

This his hard to judge without additional information. What exactly do you paste into WinBoard? (Can you paste the same text here?)

Also, were you running WinBoard with an engine or just in Game Viewer mode? Illegal-move complaints can also come from an engine. You can see that from the exact message that WinBoard displays when refusing the move.

[Dave Neve]

Hello

The first question is easy and I'll put the moves at the bottom

The second question is harder as I'm not sure.
I open up Winboard using just "view or edit a game" and then I "paste in the game from clipboard". I haven't even loaded an engine yet but immediately get a message "illegal move 3 Rf5"

So it's at this point that I say to myself, okay I need an engine that can handle FRC but as I tried to explain, whatever engine I load and then start again with the paste operation, I get the same error message
Thanks in advance for your help

1. e4 Nc6 2. f4 f5 3. ef5 Rf5 4. g4 Rf8 5. Nc3 h5 6. g5 e6 7. Nge2 Nge7 8. Bf2 h4 9. a3 Nf5 10. Ne4 Be7 11. N2c3 b6 12. d3 d5 13. Nd2 Bd6 14. Bg1 O-O-O 15. Nb5 Be7 16. Bg4 a6 17. Nc3 Bh5 18. Bh5 Qh5 19. O-O-O Bd6 20. Rde1 Nfe7 21. Ne2 Ng6 22. Be3 Nge7 23. Kb1 Nf5 24. Bg1 Kb7 25. Nb3 h3 26. Bf2 Rde8 27. Nd2 Nfe7 28. Be3 Ng6 29. Ka1 Nh4 30. Ng3 Qg4 31. c4 Ng2 32. c5 Ne1 33. Re1 Bf4

[H.G.Muller]

How can WinBoard possibly know there is a Rook at f8? It will of course assume the black Rooks are at a8 and h8. Because it has no way to know this is an FRC game, and not orthodox Chess, and even if it did, it has no clue what the initial position is. The first problem can be solved by switching it to FRC with the New Variant menu before you paste, but not the second. Giving just moves is not a sufficient description of an FRC game; the initial position is an essential part of the game description.

[Dave Neve]

Thanks HG Muller

I tried a few things like setting up the FRC position before copying the FRC game from the clipboard but nothing worked

It's a shame as if I've understood you correctly, that means that Winboard cannot play out any FRC game that are pasted into it???

anyway, thanks for answering my questions.

Regards

[H.G.Muller]

When you paste a full description of the game, (e.g. in PGN format) WinBoard would be able to play through it without problem. But only the moves are just not a complete description of an FRC game; the initial position is an integral part of such a description. In PGN format it woul be included in a 'FEN tag'. (By saving an FRC game from WinBoard you can see how that looks.)

Setting up the position first doesn't work, because on pasting a game WinBoard starts a new game, erasing the position you set up.

What you could do is use a saved FRC game as 'template', replace the moves in it by the moves of the game you want to view, and replace the FEN in the FEN tag by the FEN of the initial position for that game, using a text editor. And then paste the whole game, including the tags, into WinBoard.

[Dave Acevedo]

Turn off Test Legality...

[Dave Neve]

Hello H G Muller

I got the "template" idea to work, at least for a new game, but my hunch is that Winboard could problably be improved to run FRC games.

I mean, if you set up the initial position normally, then it has the initial position of course. This should be used rather than getting erased as you said

I like FRC as it make players rely more on their own calculations rather than on memorised openings taken from Chess engines

Regards

[H.G.Muller]

In most cases it would be very undesirable that pasting a game would not automatically start from the standard opening position. So it would be unwise to tailor WinBoard to a rare case where this would be helpful. Especially since what you try to do seems improper use of WinBoard anyway. Normally the description of an FRC game would contain the initial position, and when you would paste it there would be no problem then. Requiring people to first set up the position by hand in Edit Position mode before they can paste the moves is horrendously user-unfriendly. The real problem here is that you apparently get deficient game records from a crappy source, and the logical solution would be to let that source clean up their act, and provide valid game records.

BTW, there already exists a work-around in WinBoard to enter moves in a set-up position: you can paste them in the Engine Output window like they were a PV. Right-clicking a PV and moving the mouse will make WinBoard play through the PV, and in Analyze Mode you can even add the PV to the game (which at that point would contain zero moves).