Goliath V2.5 Hype or really strong?

[Aaron]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Aaron at 01 March 2000 10:06:50:
So this much hyped engine is finally out (at least for those of us who don't get private testing versions) Any impressions of it's strengths vers Crafty177?
I did a quick Blitz test of 12 games, Crafty still came up on top 7-5 ,but it was closer than the scored indicated. 1 game was drawn when Golaith had 2 Black Queens vers Crafty's bare King but overstepped the time limit(BTW winboard considers this a loss??)
Another was a almostly totally drawn endgame Q+N+K vers Q+K where Goliath had many chances to exchange queens to draw but didn't and instead blundered in the time problem..
I notice this problem espically for Goliath, it tends to lose equal endgames by blundering when it runs out of time..Crafty tends to have better time management usually typically having 45 second or more ahead of Goliath
This Goliath and other versions also tends to be extremly optimist, it tends to give itself too high evaulations. I have seen goliath lose or fail to win positions which it gives itself +3.0 (crafty puts it at +2.0) ,on the hand crafty tends to convert such e advantages more often..
Still it's no doubt it's a great tactical solver even with combination off, it beats the pants off any other program even the commericials like Fritz6 .This probably shows clearly that tactical test suites probably don't correlate much with playing strenght..
So is the lastest Goliath stronger than crafty at Blitz or Rapid and/or Standard time controls? OR are they so close you can't tell??
I would say Crafty is still a little stronger than Goliath at Blitz though.. Rapid and standard time controls is another story...
What do you think?

[Jouni Uski]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Jouni Uski at 01 March 2000 13:23:03:
Als Antwort auf:/As an answer to: Goliath V2.5 Hype or really strong? geschrieben von:/posted by: Aaron at 01 March 2000 10:06:50:
In my AMD K6-2/450 Lg2000 is better than Crafty17.7 in all levels. But note, that it seems not to like sudden death blitz, but games with increment. It
has never lost game with time, when I play 4'+1'' games!

[Aaron]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Aaron at 01 March 2000 15:39:48:
Als Antwort auf:/As an answer to: Re: Goliath V2.5 Hype or really strong? geschrieben von:/posted by: Jouni Uski at 01 March 2000 13:23:03:

In my AMD K6-2/450 Lg2000 is better than Crafty17.7 in all levels. But note, >that it seems not to like sudden death blitz, but games with increment. It
has never lost game with time, when I play 4'+1'' games!

Perhaps I should try games with increment.

But I sort of remember reading on CCC , where someone said that Crafty runs somewhat slower on AMD, that could explain the difference..
What about the rest of you? Which free winboard program rules your computer Crafty or Goliath or something else?

[Djordje Vidanovic]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Djordje Vidanovic at 01 March 2000 16:09:36:
Als Antwort auf:/As an answer to: Re: Goliath V2.5 Hype or really strong? geschrieben von:/posted by: Aaron at 01 March 2000 15:39:48:

In my AMD K6-2/450 Lg2000 is better than Crafty17.7 in all levels. But note, >that it seems not to like sudden death blitz, but games with increment. It
has never lost game with time, when I play 4'+1'' games!

Perhaps I should try games with increment.

But I sort of remember reading on CCC , where someone said that Crafty runs somewhat slower on AMD, that could explain the difference..
What about the rest of you? Which free winboard program rules your computer Crafty or Goliath or something else?

Among free WB engines: Crafty, LG, SOS, AnMon, Gromit. There are some awesome commercial WB engines such as Shredder III, Zarkov 4.X and Gandalf 4.X Beta (seen in play on ICC) that are better than the five excellent WB engines, and Nimzo 2000 WB that is approximately their strength. I guess that all five WB engines would be rated around 2500 on 450Mhz computers on the SSDF list. My personal favourites are AnMon (its elegant attacking style) and SOS (general wholesome play, positional tendencies -- SOS is stronger than Crafty at longer time controls, just try it).
Other WB engines that I like are Fortress and Cilian (about 2150 - 2250)due to their "human-like" play. But then, I like most WB engines -- I simply see them as gifts to us, computer chess fans.
Djordje

[Volker Pittlik]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Volker Pittlik at 01 March 2000 18:48:16:
Als Antwort auf:/As an answer to: Re: Goliath V2.5 Hype or really strong? geschrieben von:/posted by: Djordje Vidanovic at 01 March 2000 16:09:36:
Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Djordje Vidanovic at 01 March 2000 16:09:36:
Als Antwort auf:/As an answer to: Re: Goliath V2.5 Hype or really strong? geschrieben von:/posted by: Aaron at 01 March 2000 15:39:48:

In my AMD K6-2/450 Lg2000 is better than Crafty17.7 in all levels. But note, >>>that it seems not to like sudden death blitz, but games with increment. It
has never lost game with time, when I play 4'+1'' games!

Perhaps I should try games with increment.
But I sort of remember reading on CCC , where someone said that Crafty runs >>somewhat slower on AMD, that could explain the difference..
What about the rest of you? Which free winboard program rules your computer >>Crafty or Goliath or something else?

Among free WB engines: Crafty, LG, SOS, AnMon, Gromit. There are some awesome >commercial WB engines such as Shredder III, Zarkov 4.X and Gandalf 4.X Beta >(seen in play on ICC) that are better than the five excellent WB engines, and >Nimzo 2000 WB that is approximately their strength.
I guess that all five WB engines would be rated around 2500 on 450Mhz >computers on the SSDF list.
My personal favourites are AnMon (its elegant attacking style) and SOS (general >wholesome play, positional tendencies -- SOS is stronger than Crafty at longer >time controls, just try it).
Djordje

I haven't seen any time problems with LG playing some matches against Crafty17.8 (Dann Corbit's compilation) on faster time controls, although LG lost the match. At slower time controls I got:

No. Name Win Draw Loss Unf. Score Games %
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Crafty178_c +6 =3 -4 *0 7.5 13 57.7%
2 LG2000V25 +4 =3 -6 *0 5.5 13 42.3%
Total Games: 13
White Wins: 6 (46.2%)
Black Wins: 4 (30.8%)
Draws: 3 (23.1%)
Unfinished: 0 (0.0%)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Time control: game in one hour
Tablebases: all 3, 4 and some 5
Ponder: on
Hash: ~32 MB each
System: Dualboard-Celeron, 2*433 MHz
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Without any doubt Crafty.
Don't forget Crafty has won CCT-1, defeating Nimzo and Junior(!), all of them running on monster hardware. Crafty draws against Shredder and Insomniac(!!).
I totally agree.
Hm, not on my machines:

No. Name Win Draw Loss Unf. Score Games %
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Wcrafty1619 +12 =8 -10 *0 16.0 30 53.3%
2 sos +10 =8 -12 *0 14.0 30 46.7%
Total Games: 30
White Wins: 11 (36.7%)
Black Wins: 11 (36.7%)
Draws: 8 (26.7%)
Unfinished: 0 (0.0%)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Time control: 40 moves in one hour
Tablebases: all 3 and 4
Ponder: off
Hash: ~32 MB each
System: PIII, 450 MHz
----------------------------------------------------------------------

PGN of all games available on request.

Best regards
Volker

[Dan Andersson]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Dan Andersson at 01 March 2000 23:48:21:
Als Antwort auf:/As an answer to: Re: Goliath V2.5 Hype or really strong? geschrieben von:/posted by: Aaron at 01 March 2000 15:39:48:

In my AMD K6-2/450 Lg2000 is better than Crafty17.7 in all levels. But note, >that it seems not to like sudden death blitz, but games with increment. It
has never lost game with time, when I play 4'+1'' games!

Perhaps I should try games with increment.

But I sort of remember reading on CCC , where someone said that Crafty runs somewhat slower on AMD, that could explain the difference..
What about the rest of you? Which free winboard program rules your computer Crafty or Goliath or something else?

AnMon is very strong at longer time controls.