crafty clone?

[Daniel Shawul]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Daniel Shawul at 28 November 2003 08:31:06:

I have read about List being a crafty clone.
When do we exactly say an engine is a clone of some other engine?
My engine uses bitboard representation. And clearly the best place to
learn about bitboard representation is crafty.Ok! I use ideas from
crafty and implement it in my engine my own way.And sometimes to save time
I copy codes which is not important for the engines strength like "displaying
board","testing move generator",and other cosmetics I need for my engine.
If that is what makes engines clones,then I would be forced to say
DanChess(my engine) is TSCP clone,Pepito clone,Beouluf clone,Crafty clone...and
other open source engines clone.And I have witnessed some source code of pepito and beowluf which is very similar to crafty's,so I will again be forced to say
they are crafty's clone.Or am I missing something here?
regards
Daniel Shawul

[Uri Blass]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Uri Blass at 28 November 2003 09:04:30:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: crafty clone? geschrieben von: / posted by: Daniel Shawul at 28 November 2003 08:31:06:

I have read about List being a crafty clone.
When do we exactly say an engine is a clone of some other engine?
My engine uses bitboard representation. And clearly the best place to
learn about bitboard representation is crafty.Ok! I use ideas from
crafty and implement it in my engine my own way.And sometimes to save time
I copy codes which is not important for the engines strength like "displaying
board","testing move generator",and other cosmetics I need for my engine.
If that is what makes engines clones,then I would be forced to say
DanChess(my engine) is TSCP clone,Pepito clone,Beouluf clone,Crafty clone...and
other open source engines clone.And I have witnessed some source code of pepito and beowluf which is very similar to crafty's,so I will again be forced to say
they are crafty's clone.Or am I missing something here?
regards
Daniel Shawul

The only source code that I read and understood was tscp.
I also looked at Crafty and used some things from it(for example I decided to give smaller bonus for blocked passed pawn thanks to crafty but I read less than 1% of Crafty).
I started from a legal move generator but I copied part of the data structure from tscp but I never considered movei as a tscp clone because of the following reasons:
1)I did not start from tscp but from a move generator that is basically different and generates only legal moves.
2)There are essential arrays for tscp that movei does not use like mailbox.
3)There are origninal data structures that I copied from nobody even in the
first version.
4)Big majority of my code even in the first version was original.
Uri

[Daniel Shawul]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Daniel Shawul at 28 November 2003 09:29:04:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: crafty clone? geschrieben von: / posted by: Uri Blass at 28 November 2003 09:04:30:

I have read about List being a crafty clone.
When do we exactly say an engine is a clone of some other engine?
My engine uses bitboard representation. And clearly the best place to
learn about bitboard representation is crafty.Ok! I use ideas from
crafty and implement it in my engine my own way.And sometimes to save time
I copy codes which is not important for the engines strength like "displaying
board","testing move generator",and other cosmetics I need for my engine.
If that is what makes engines clones,then I would be forced to say
DanChess(my engine) is TSCP clone,Pepito clone,Beouluf clone,Crafty clone...and
other open source engines clone.And I have witnessed some source code of pepito and beowluf which is very similar to crafty's,so I will again be forced to say
they are crafty's clone.Or am I missing something here?
regards
Daniel Shawul

The only source code that I read and understood was tscp.
I also looked at Crafty and used some things from it(for example I decided to give smaller bonus for blocked passed pawn thanks to crafty but I read less than 1% of Crafty).
I started from a legal move generator but I copied part of the data structure from tscp but I never considered movei as a tscp clone because of the following reasons:
1)I did not start from tscp but from a move generator that is basically different and generates only legal moves.
2)There are essential arrays for tscp that movei does not use like mailbox.
3)There are origninal data structures that I copied from nobody even in the
first version.
4)Big majority of my code even in the first version was original.
Uri

Let me tell you my story.
DanChess wasn't a chess playing programme at first.
It was a checkers programme.I still have a programme with own interface
which plays checkers,another variant of checkers,chess.All of them in
one source code!!! Then I began separating the codes each of them with own
DLL and still using the same interface.Imagine the difficulty I had when I
had to update the engine,the interace etc.... When I found tscp ,I left all
the other except the engine part.I had to clean out the code to make it play
only chess.What I am saying in short is DanChess is never ever based on
anybody's engine.But I sometimes take Ideas from open source.I read papers on search techiniques,evaluations etc... and implement it my own way.Believe me
the paper on AEL pruning be E.Heinz made futility pruning more clear to me than
any open source.
regards
Daniel




danchess

[Nicolas Normand]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Nicolas Normand at 28 November 2003 10:17:27:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: crafty clone? geschrieben von: / posted by: Daniel Shawul at 28 November 2003 08:31:06:

I have read about List being a crafty clone.
When do we exactly say an engine is a clone of some other engine?
My engine uses bitboard representation. And clearly the best place to
learn about bitboard representation is crafty.Ok! I use ideas from
crafty and implement it in my engine my own way.And sometimes to save time
I copy codes which is not important for the engines strength like "displaying
board","testing move generator",and other cosmetics I need for my engine.
If that is what makes engines clones,then I would be forced to say
DanChess(my engine) is TSCP clone,Pepito clone,Beouluf clone,Crafty clone...and
other open source engines clone.And I have witnessed some source code of pepito and beowluf which is very similar to crafty's,so I will again be forced to say
they are crafty's clone.Or am I missing something here?
regards
Daniel Shawul

[Uri Blass]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Uri Blass at 28 November 2003 10:28:55:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Where did you read this information ? geschrieben von: / posted by: Nicolas Normand at 28 November 2003 10:17:27:

I have read about List being a crafty clone.
When do we exactly say an engine is a clone of some other engine?
My engine uses bitboard representation. And clearly the best place to
learn about bitboard representation is crafty.Ok! I use ideas from
crafty and implement it in my engine my own way.And sometimes to save time
I copy codes which is not important for the engines strength like "displaying
board","testing move generator",and other cosmetics I need for my engine.
If that is what makes engines clones,then I would be forced to say
DanChess(my engine) is TSCP clone,Pepito clone,Beouluf clone,Crafty clone...and
other open source engines clone.And I have witnessed some source code of pepito and beowluf which is very similar to crafty's,so I will again be forced to say
they are crafty's clone.Or am I missing something here?
regards
Daniel Shawul

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=1330

[Jon Dart]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Jon Dart at 28 November 2003 16:10:53:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: crafty clone? geschrieben von: / posted by: Daniel Shawul at 28 November 2003 08:31:06:

And sometimes to save time
I copy codes which is not important for the engines strength like "displaying
board","testing move generator",and other cosmetics I need for my engine.

If the source you are copying from isn't under GPL or some similiar license,
then copying it verbatim into your program is a violation of copyright. It is not
likely you'll be caught doing this as long as you keep your source private,
but it's still not legal. Did you consider asking the author's permission?
--Jon

[Uri Blass]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Uri Blass at 28 November 2003 16:38:34:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: crafty clone? geschrieben von: / posted by: Jon Dart at 28 November 2003 16:10:53:

And sometimes to save time
I copy codes which is not important for the engines strength like "displaying
board","testing move generator",and other cosmetics I need for my engine.

If the source you are copying from isn't under GPL or some similiar license,
then copying it verbatim into your program is a violation of copyright. It is not
likely you'll be caught doing this as long as you keep your source private,
but it's still not legal. Did you consider asking the author's permission?
--Jon

I do not agree.
I think that nobody will do something against him because of a code that is not relevant for playing strength of the engine even in case that he releases his source code.
If the copy is only in code for debugging or code for connecting the program with winboard then I see no justification to complain against the programmer.
Uri

[Daniel Shawul]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Daniel Shawul at 28 November 2003 16:59:16:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: crafty clone? geschrieben von: / posted by: Jon Dart at 28 November 2003 16:10:53:

And sometimes to save time
I copy codes which is not important for the engines strength like "displaying
board","testing move generator",and other cosmetics I need for my engine.

If the source you are copying from isn't under GPL or some similiar license,
then copying it verbatim into your program is a violation of copyright. It is not
likely you'll be caught doing this as long as you keep your source private,
but it's still not legal. Did you consider asking the author's permission?
--Jon

Are you saying copying a code which display a beautiful board is violation of
copyright? I can display my own board with some weird characters if I want to.
And I use a move generator testing techinique like crafty.Generate all the
availabe moves 1 million times and divide that the time it takes.Well this helped me much to compare my engines speed of move generation to compare it with crafty's.Well I am sure that i can come up with some way of doing these
things if i never saw any code.But since i have a free source code,why go through all the trouble? Like frank said at the ccc forum,it is the degree
that matters.
http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?331471
regards
Daniel





danchess

[Jon Dart]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Jon Dart at 28 November 2003 17:49:14:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: crafty clone? geschrieben von: / posted by: Daniel Shawul at 28 November 2003 16:59:16:

Well I am sure that i can come up with some way of doing these
things if i never saw any code.But since i have a free source code,why go through >all the trouble? Like frank said at the ccc forum,it is the degree
that matters.

The fact that it's published doesn't make it "free" to copy.
It sounds like you don't even understand what "copyright" means.
--Jon

[Uri Blass]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Uri Blass at 28 November 2003 18:27:19:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: crafty clone? geschrieben von: / posted by: Jon Dart at 28 November 2003 17:49:14:

Well I am sure that i can come up with some way of doing these
things if i never saw any code.But since i have a free source code,why go through >all the trouble? Like frank said at the ccc forum,it is the degree
that matters.

The fact that it's published doesn't make it "free" to copy.
It sounds like you don't even understand what "copyright" means.
--Jon

The code that display the board is not relevant under winboard and I doubt if people use it.
He could copy it and releasing a version without the command d.
Uri

[Uri Blass]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Uri Blass at 28 November 2003 18:35:42:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: crafty clone? geschrieben von: / posted by: Uri Blass at 28 November 2003 18:27:19:

Well I am sure that i can come up with some way of doing these
things if i never saw any code.But since i have a free source code,why go through >all the trouble? Like frank said at the ccc forum,it is the degree
that matters.

The fact that it's published doesn't make it "free" to copy.
It sounds like you don't even understand what "copyright" means.
--Jon

The code that display the board is not relevant under winboard and I doubt if people use it.
He could copy it and releasing a version without the command d.
Uri

I mean that there is no rule that forbid him to copy it as long as he is using it only for his fun and he could release a version without the function of crafty that display board and probably nobody could notice it.
The only reason that I noticed it was his post(I downloaded Danchess but used it only under winboard but after his post I tried to use it not under winboard and noticed after clicking help the possibility to display the board by d).
Uri

[daniel]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: daniel at 29 November 2003 05:48:44:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: crafty clone? geschrieben von: / posted by: Uri Blass at 28 November 2003 18:35:42:

Well I am sure that i can come up with some way of doing these
things if i never saw any code.But since i have a free source code,why go through >all the trouble? Like frank said at the ccc forum,it is the degree
that matters.

The fact that it's published doesn't make it "free" to copy.
It sounds like you don't even understand what "copyright" means.
--Jon

The code that display the board is not relevant under winboard and I doubt if people use it.
He could copy it and releasing a version without the command d.
Uri

I mean that there is no rule that forbid him to copy it as long as he is using it only for his fun and he could release a version without the function of crafty that display board and probably nobody could notice it.
The only reason that I noticed it was his post(I downloaded Danchess but used it only under winboard but after his post I tried to use it not under winboard and noticed after clicking help the possibility to display the board by d).
Uri

come on.As far as I know there are only two frequently used board display methods.One is the boring style tscp uses and one crafty uses.
I am not sure whether it is bob hyatt's own style,but i can count 10 other
engines with almost the same style and still offering some command to display
the board.

[capgadget]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: capgadget at 30 November 2003 00:19:40:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: crafty clone? geschrieben von: / posted by: Uri Blass at 28 November 2003 09:04:30:

Whether or not it is a clone is irrelevabt now. He failed to cooperate Banned till 2006 now.

[Stefano Gemma]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Stefano Gemma at 30 November 2003 12:21:22:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: crafty clone? geschrieben von: / posted by: Uri Blass at 28 November 2003 16:38:34:

[...]

I do not agree.
I think that nobody will do something against him because of a code that is not relevant for playing strength of the engine even in case that he releases his source code.
If the copy is only in code for debugging or code for connecting the program with winboard then I see no justification to complain against the programmer.
Uri

But, if you then release your software for free, with source code, someone can think that it is legal to use that source code even in commercial applications. maybe the right way to proceed is to put in the source the copyright of the original author.
Ciao!!!
Stefano Gemma



http://www.linformatica.com

[Dann Corbit]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dann Corbit at 01 December 2003 17:07:37:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: crafty clone? geschrieben von: / posted by: Daniel Shawul at 28 November 2003 08:31:06:

I have read about List being a crafty clone.
When do we exactly say an engine is a clone of some other engine?
My engine uses bitboard representation. And clearly the best place to
learn about bitboard representation is crafty.Ok! I use ideas from
crafty and implement it in my engine my own way.And sometimes to save time
I copy codes which is not important for the engines strength like "displaying
board","testing move generator",and other cosmetics I need for my engine.
If that is what makes engines clones,then I would be forced to say
DanChess(my engine) is TSCP clone,Pepito clone,Beouluf clone,Crafty clone...and
other open source engines clone.And I have witnessed some source code of pepito and beowluf which is very similar to crafty's,so I will again be forced to say
they are crafty's clone.Or am I missing something here?
regards

There is absolutely no way that List is a crafty clone or anything like it. I have seen some of List's source code (long ago) when the author asked me for some optimization advice. Actually, the code was so excellent that I could not come up with anything, even though I considered the code for quite a while.
It is not even bitboard based. His move generator is the best looking that I have ever seen for a non-bitboard engine. He is obviously an excellent programmer.
His code looks like nothing I have ever seen before, and I have seen plenty of engines.
Whoever it is that imagines List is a clone of something is dead wrong. There is zero chance that List is a copy of some other program. The pieces of code that I did see were fabulous and original.
End of story.


my ftp site {remove http:// unless you like error messages}