Polyglot and Galis WBTM

[Igor Gorelikov]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Igor Gorelikov at 23 April 2004 12:55:37:


Polyglot runs fine under single Winboard but under Galis WBTM it hangs in RAM after each game along with an engine.
Igor

[Fabien Letouzey]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Fabien Letouzey at 23 April 2004 13:07:28:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Polyglot and Galis WBTM geschrieben von:/posted by: Igor Gorelikov at 23 April 2004 12:55:37:

Polyglot runs fine under single Winboard but under Galis WBTM it hangs in RAM after each game along with an engine.
Igor

We've discovered that yesterday, see a thread below. I've been trying to find this out for weeks (I thought it also happened with WinBoard alone and Shredder, but at least WinBoard is open source and I can check it is not doing anything wrong)!
Do I understand correctly that Galis WBTM controls WinBoard (as opposed to launching the engines itself)? It seems to kill processes when it has decided that the match was finished (not caring about whether those processes want to do some cleanup when quitting).
Fabien.

[Fabien Letouzey]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Fabien Letouzey at 23 April 2004 13:15:28:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Polyglot and Galis WBTM geschrieben von:/posted by: Fabien Letouzey at 23 April 2004 13:07:28:

Polyglot runs fine under single Winboard but under Galis WBTM it hangs in RAM after each game along with an engine.
Igor

We've discovered that yesterday, see a thread below. I've been trying to find this out for weeks (I thought it also happened with WinBoard alone and Shredder, but at least WinBoard is open source and I can check it is not doing anything wrong)!
...

My bad, Norm Pollock mentionned the same problem with *Jori*'s WBTM. It's possible they both have the same problem. Maybe one of them has an option though.
I don't have Windows and they're not open source, so I have no idea what they do.
Fabien.

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 23 April 2004 13:32:22:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Polyglot and Galis WBTM geschrieben von:/posted by: Igor Gorelikov at 23 April 2004 12:55:37:

Polyglot runs fine under single Winboard but under Galis WBTM it hangs in RAM after each game along with an engine.

As reported yesterday, the Polyglot and Galis combination doesn't give me any grief.
One thought. I use a separate polyglot for each engine instead of one for both. What setup do you use?
Regards,
Mogens

[Igor Gorelikov]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Igor Gorelikov at 23 April 2004 13:58:56:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Polyglot and Galis WBTM geschrieben von:/posted by: Fabien Letouzey at 23 April 2004 13:15:28:

If I add -xreuse parameter to the engine command line, all works fine!
No hang-up.
Igor

[Igor Gorelikov]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Igor Gorelikov at 23 April 2004 13:59:49:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Polyglot and Galis WBTM geschrieben von:/posted by: Mogens Larsen at 23 April 2004 13:32:22:

Polyglot runs fine under single Winboard but under Galis WBTM it hangs in RAM after each game along with an engine.

As reported yesterday, the Polyglot and Galis combination doesn't give me any grief.
One thought. I use a separate polyglot for each engine instead of one for both. What setup do you use?
Regards,
Mogens

[Igor Gorelikov]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Igor Gorelikov at 23 April 2004 14:02:42:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Polyglot and Galis WBTM geschrieben von:/posted by: Mogens Larsen at 23 April 2004 13:32:22:

Polyglot runs fine under single Winboard but under Galis WBTM it hangs in RAM after each game along with an engine.

As reported yesterday, the Polyglot and Galis combination doesn't give me any grief.
One thought. I use a separate polyglot for each engine instead of one for both. What setup do you use?
Regards,
Mogens

I use a separate polyglot only for engines without book (namely List 512) to enable BookThinker.
Regards,
Igor

[Fabien Letouzey]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Fabien Letouzey at 23 April 2004 14:18:47:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Solution found geschrieben von:/posted by: Igor Gorelikov at 23 April 2004 13:58:56:

If I add -xreuse parameter to the engine command line, all works fine!
No hang-up.
Igor

That's a work around; we still don't know what the cause is.
Fabien.

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 23 April 2004 14:49:58:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Polyglot and Galis WBTM geschrieben von:/posted by: Igor Gorelikov at 23 April 2004 14:02:42:

I use a separate polyglot only for engines without book (namely List 512) to enable BookThinker.

Do they "hang" as well?
Regards,
Mogens

[Norm Pollock]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Norm Pollock at 23 April 2004 15:10:22:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Solution found geschrieben von:/posted by: Fabien Letouzey at 23 April 2004 14:18:47:

If I add -xreuse parameter to the engine command line, all works fine!
No hang-up.
Igor

That's a work around; we still don't know what the cause is.
Fabien.

I'm still working with Galis wbtm. I had trouble finding it because one of the links on its home page is not working. Fortunately I found that it can be downloaded from Leo's site.
I'm still testing. I also have added the following command parameters to the 3 heavyweight UCI engines that we want to make WB compatible (SOS4, List 5.12 and Little Goliath Nemesis):
as first engine: -xreuse -firstProtocolVersion 1
as second engine: -xreuse2 -secondProtocolVersion 1
I'm testing under 4 scenarios:
(1) Jori's wbtm
(2) Galis' wbtm
(3) winboard batch file
(4) winboard single game from its opening menu
The 3 engines (SOS4, List 5.12 and Little Goliath Nemesis) have separate polyglot.exe, List is using BookThinker, SOS4 is not using nalimov tbs.
One thing is clear. List 5.12 will exit winboard when it is within one move of checkmating its opponent. Jori's wbtm handles that without crashing by reporting the result as "*" and then you can manually restate the result.
I will have more to report.

[Fabien Letouzey]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Fabien Letouzey at 23 April 2004 15:18:39:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Solution found geschrieben von:/posted by: Norm Pollock at 23 April 2004 15:10:22:


Thanks for your tests,

as first engine: -xreuse -firstProtocolVersion 1
as second engine: -xreuse2 -secondProtocolVersion 1
I'm testing under 4 scenarios:
(1) Jori's wbtm
(2) Galis' wbtm
(3) winboard batch file
(4) winboard single game from its opening menu

Use ProtocolVersion 1 only in combination with BookThinker.
I expect (3) and (4) to always have the same behaviour.
Fabien.

[Igor Gorelikov]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Igor Gorelikov at 23 April 2004 15:20:05:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Polyglot and Galis WBTM geschrieben von:/posted by: Mogens Larsen at 23 April 2004 14:49:58:

I use a separate polyglot only for engines without book (namely List 512) to enable BookThinker.

Do they "hang" as well?
Regards,
Mogens

No, List 512 doesn't hang (while using in conjunction with Polyglot from a separate folder).
Igor

[Fabien Letouzey]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Fabien Letouzey at 23 April 2004 15:24:39:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Polyglot and Galis WBTM geschrieben von:/posted by: Mogens Larsen at 23 April 2004 14:49:58:

I use a separate polyglot only for engines without book (namely List 512) to enable BookThinker.

Do they "hang" as well?
Regards,
Mogens

Don't forget that an engine can hang only if it has an I/O "bug", so it's always engine specific. It's possible that List does not have this bug. Try it in a console, then press ctrl-Z followed by return; the engine should quit.
Fabien.

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 23 April 2004 18:17:40:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Polyglot and Galis WBTM geschrieben von:/posted by: Fabien Letouzey at 23 April 2004 15:24:39:

Don't forget that an engine can hang only if it has an I/O "bug", so it's always engine specific. It's possible that List does not have this bug. Try it in a console, then press ctrl-Z followed by return; the engine should quit.

I just wondered if the "sharing" of Polyglot by two engines might somehow affect the shutdown process. In particular when used with a WBTM. Especially my lack of problems with the aforementioned solution. But I admit my ignorance in this matter.
Regards,
Mogens

[Fabien Letouzey]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Fabien Letouzey at 23 April 2004 18:33:19:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Polyglot and Galis WBTM geschrieben von:/posted by: Mogens Larsen at 23 April 2004 18:17:40:

I just wondered if the "sharing" of Polyglot by two engines might somehow affect the shutdown process. In particular when used with a WBTM. Especially my lack of problems with the aforementioned solution. But I admit my ignorance in this matter.

No. The *executable files* are shared, not the processes. Each instance is completely independant from the other ones.
Of course they should have different log files.
Fabien.

[Mogens Larsen]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 23 April 2004 19:38:32:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Polyglot and Galis WBTM geschrieben von:/posted by: Fabien Letouzey at 23 April 2004 18:33:19:

No. The *executable files* are shared, not the processes. Each instance is completely independant from the other ones.
Of course they should have different log files.

Okay. Just a thought.
I've been running a little 40/5' tournament under Galis. No hanging inbetween games or after completion.
Judging by the logfiles, the discrepancy between exact and guessed time seems to be much less than 0.1 seconds on average.
So everything appears to be working on my comp. Good job!
Regards,
Mogens

[Norm Pollock]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Norm Pollock at 23 April 2004 20:54:53:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Polyglot and Galis WBTM geschrieben von:/posted by: Igor Gorelikov at 23 April 2004 12:55:37:

I tested LG Nemesis, List 5.12 and SOS 4 under polyglot and under 2 tournament managers: Jori and Galis. I also tested them with a winboard multi-game batch file.
With LGNemesis I used the "-xreuse" setting (similar for second engine). I used Nalimov tbs. I used the engine's book.
With List 5.12 I used BookThinker, Nalimov tbs and the "-xreuse" and "firstProtocolVersion 1" settings (similar for the second engine).
With SOS4 I used the "-xreuse" and "-firstProtocol 1" settings (similar for the second engine. I did not use Nalimov tbs. I used the engine's book.
With Jori wbtm, the only problem to report was List's quick exit after a checkmate before Jori could report the score. Jori reported an "*" as the result. The "*" can be overridden by manual commands to give List credit for the win.
With Galis wbtm, which is much more difficult to install (for example: case sensitive directory references) the only problem was also List's quick exit after a checkmate before Galis could report the score. However Galis did not handle it well. Galis ignored the game and reset it as though the game never occurred. Otherwise Galis was OK with SOS 4 and LGNemesis.
With winboard batch files using -mg # for a multigame match, the List problem caused a crash which destroyed the remainder of the match. SOS4 could use nalimov tbs in this case.
Since the List problem is not related to polyglot, I have no complaints about polyglot. Just want to mention that you have to try out the "-xreuse/-xreuse2" and "firstProtocolVersion 1 / secondProtocolVersion 1" settings to see which if any are needed for a particular engine when working with polyglot.

[Fabien Letouzey]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Fabien Letouzey at 26 April 2004 17:47:16:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Polyglot and Galis WBTM geschrieben von:/posted by: Norm Pollock at 23 April 2004 20:54:53:

With Galis wbtm, which is much more difficult to install (for example: case sensitive directory references) the only problem was also List's quick exit after a checkmate before Galis could report the score. However Galis did not handle it well. Galis ignored the game and reset it as though the game never occurred. Otherwise Galis was OK with SOS 4 and LGNemesis.
With winboard batch files using -mg # for a multigame match, the List problem caused a crash which destroyed the remainder of the match. SOS4 could use nalimov tbs in this case.
Since the List problem is not related to polyglot, I have no complaints about polyglot. Just want to mention that you have to try out the "-xreuse/-xreuse2" and "firstProtocolVersion 1 / secondProtocolVersion 1" settings to see which if any are needed for a particular engine when working with polyglot.

This is really bad!!!
PolyGlot reports a fatal error, then quits.
From WinBoard's point of view, it is the same as if the engine crashed.
Surely an engine crash should not make the game disappear right?
Or does Galis treat this case differently for some reason (hanging?)?
I did not think of that.
As PolyGlot reports a fatal error (syntax error by List = same level as reporting an illegal move), the match is indeed interrupted.
It is related to PolyGlot in the sense that PolyGlot reacts to it with a fatal error.
Fabien.