KnightDreamer 3.3 with 5-man EGMs

[Johan Melin]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Johan Melin at 25 July 2004 20:33:36:


ftp://cap.connx.com/pub/Contrib/Johan/KnightD33.zip (211MB)
EGMs are compressed bitbases, containing win/loss/draw. KPPKP and all subclasses are supported, but not 4-1 endings like KPPPK. On a machine with enough ram you can load the egms into ram and probe whenever trading into a 5-man ending.
Next I will convert indexes and such to 64 bits to support 6-man endings. Ed Trice has offered to provide CPU-time for generating them.
/Johan Melin



http://www3.tripnet.se/~owemelin/johan/ ... eamer.html

[Joachim Rang]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Joachim Rang at 25 July 2004 21:24:23:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: KnightDreamer 3.3 with 5-man EGMs geschrieben von:/posted by: Johan Melin at 25 July 2004 20:33:36:

ftp://cap.connx.com/pub/Contrib/Johan/KnightD33.zip (211MB)
EGMs are compressed bitbases, containing win/loss/draw. KPPKP and all subclasses are supported, but not 4-1 endings like KPPPK. On a machine with enough ram you can load the egms into ram and probe whenever trading into a 5-man ending.
Next I will convert indexes and such to 64 bits to support 6-man endings. Ed Trice has offered to provide CPU-time for generating them.
/Johan Melin

so you are saying all 5-men endings (except 4-1) in EGMs are 211 MB only? Quite a difference to EGTB. What do you expect for 6-men?
regards Joachim

[Johan Melin]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Johan Melin at 25 July 2004 22:58:02:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: KnightDreamer 3.3 with 5-man EGMs geschrieben von:/posted by: Joachim Rang at 25 July 2004 21:24:23:

so you are saying all 5-men endings (except 4-1) in EGMs are 211 MB only? Quite a difference to EGTB. What do you expect for 6-men?
regards Joachim

Actually, as egms they are 228MB, the zip get a few percent.
I don't know how difficult the 6-man endings are, so I can only guess. Perhaps 50-100GB.
/Johan



http://www3.tripnet.se/~owemelin/johan/ ... eamer.html

[Norm Pollock]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Norm Pollock at 26 July 2004 04:41:15:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: KnightDreamer 3.3 with 5-man EGMs geschrieben von:/posted by: Johan Melin at 25 July 2004 20:33:36:

ftp://cap.connx.com/pub/Contrib/Johan/KnightD33.zip (211MB)
EGMs are compressed bitbases, containing win/loss/draw. KPPKP and all subclasses are supported, but not 4-1 endings like KPPPK. On a machine with enough ram you can load the egms into ram and probe whenever trading into a 5-man ending.
Next I will convert indexes and such to 64 bits to support 6-man endings. Ed Trice has offered to provide CPU-time for generating them.
/Johan Melin

211M download is pretty large for my dialup connection. I think I'll pass.

[Joachim Rang]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Joachim Rang at 26 July 2004 10:15:49:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: KnightDreamer 3.3 with 5-man EGMs geschrieben von:/posted by: Johan Melin at 25 July 2004 22:58:02:

so you are saying all 5-men endings (except 4-1) in EGMs are 211 MB only? Quite a difference to EGTB. What do you expect for 6-men?
regards Joachim

Actually, as egms they are 228MB, the zip get a few percent.
I don't know how difficult the 6-man endings are, so I can only guess. Perhaps 50-100GB.
/Johan

Hi,
are your EGMs open source, so are other engine authors allowed to use them or are they only for KnightDreamer? Do you think you will complete all 6-men? How do you teached your engine to actually win after reaching a EGM-won-position?
Sorry if I'm bothering you but I'm very interested in Bitbases.
regards Joachim

[Johan Melin]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Johan Melin at 26 July 2004 14:35:15:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: KnightDreamer 3.3 with 5-man EGMs geschrieben von:/posted by: Joachim Rang at 26 July 2004 10:15:49:

Hi,
are your EGMs open source, so are other engine authors allowed to use them or are they only for KnightDreamer?
Do you think you will complete all 6-men?
How do you teached your engine to actually win after reaching a EGM-won-position?
Sorry if I'm bothering you but I'm very interested in Bitbases.
regards Joachim

There is a dll that may be used freely by non-commercial programs.
Yes, I hope so.
KD can fail to win won endings. I usually test with 1 min/game, so it often reaches the egms with only seconds left, making it tough to win. It has failed in KQKR, KRPKR, KQKRP and KRRKR.
Using EGTBs would be the only way to be completely sure.
/Johan



http://www3.tripnet.se/~owemelin/johan/ ... eamer.html

[Joachim Rang]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Joachim Rang at 26 July 2004 20:58:17:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: KnightDreamer 3.3 with 5-man EGMs geschrieben von:/posted by: Johan Melin at 26 July 2004 14:35:15:

Hi,
are your EGMs open source, so are other engine authors allowed to use them or are they only for KnightDreamer?
Do you think you will complete all 6-men?
How do you teached your engine to actually win after reaching a EGM-won-position?
Sorry if I'm bothering you but I'm very interested in Bitbases.
regards Joachim

There is a dll that may be used freely by non-commercial programs.
Yes, I hope so.
KD can fail to win won endings. I usually test with 1 min/game, so it often reaches the egms with only seconds left, making it tough to win. It has failed in KQKR, KRPKR, KQKRP and KRRKR.
Using EGTBs would be the only way to be completely sure.
/Johan

Hi Johan,
I finally downloaded all the stuff and tried it right away. It looks good!
But on my machine with 512 MB RAM the command "EGM_LOAD_ALL 2" stops with a calloc failure. I specified 256 MB RAM for EGMs and tried even 512 but to no avail. How much RAM do you think one must have to be able to load all 5-men?
When do you probe? At horizon and even in quiescence or less often? In your readme you mentioned a "model" probe and a "verified" probe, what does that mean?
Have you any estimations what the difference for KnightDreamer in playing strength with egms will be?
regards Joachim

[Johan Melin]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Johan Melin at 27 July 2004 08:21:20:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: KnightDreamer 3.3 with 5-man EGMs geschrieben von:/posted by: Joachim Rang at 26 July 2004 20:58:17:

Hi Johan,
I finally downloaded all the stuff and tried it right away. It looks good!
But on my machine with 512 MB RAM the command "EGM_LOAD_ALL 2" stops with a calloc failure. I specified 256 MB RAM for EGMs and tried even 512 but to no avail. How much RAM do you think one must have to be able to load all 5-men?
When do you probe? At horizon and even in quiescence or less often? In your readme you mentioned a "model" probe and a "verified" probe, what does that mean?
Have you any estimations what the difference for KnightDreamer in playing strength with egms will be?
regards Joachim

That is a bit disappointing, I would have expected 512MB to be enough, assuming a small hashtable. But I only have 128MB myself, so I can't really test.
An egm has two parts, a model and an exception table. The model makes a guess of win/loss/draw and allways fits in ram. The better model you have of data that you want to compress, the better the compression. The exception table encodes all the errors the model makes. It is much larger and might not fit into ram.
A model probe means only probing the model for a guess, and then only verify it if the right block from the exception table happens to be loaded.
KnightDreamer makes model probes on the last few plies and in qsearch. If everything is loaded, the probes would all be verified.
With 128MB ram: only a handfull of elo. With enough ram to load it all: I can't test that on my machine.
/Johan



http://www3.tripnet.se/~owemelin/johan/ ... eamer.html