Reminder: Official deadline for Class B in RWBC ends today m

[Günther Simon]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Günther Simon at 28 July 2004 11:07:46:

[Tord Romstad]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Tord Romstad at 28 July 2004 11:31:59:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Reminder: Official deadline for Class B in RWBC ends today midnight (GMT+1) (n/t) geschrieben von:/posted by: Günther Simon at 28 July 2004 11:07:46:

Hi Günther,
Do you have any estimate of when the next Open Class will begin? I hope to
participate with an early version of my new engine.
Tord

[Günther Simon]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Günther Simon at 28 July 2004 13:12:13:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Reminder: Official deadline for Class B in RWBC ends today midnight (GMT+1) geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 28 July 2004 11:31:59:

Hi Günther,
Do you have any estimate of when the next Open Class will begin? I hope to
participate with an early version of my new engine.
Tord

That's a difficult question Tord, as I dont know, if and how long
my summer break will be. It depends also on the time I need for next
Qualifying. My vague guess would be in around 3-4 months?
Best regards,
Günther

[Tom Likens]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Tom Likens at 28 July 2004 13:48:55:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Reminder: Official deadline for Class B in RWBC ends today midnight (GMT+1) geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 28 July 2004 11:31:59:

Hi Günther,
Do you have any estimate of when the next Open Class will begin? I hope to
participate with an early version of my new engine.
Tord

Hey Tord,
Have you picked a name for the new beast? Also I'm curious, what are you
doing different this time around compared to Gothmog?
regards,
--tom

[Tord Romstad]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Tord Romstad at 28 July 2004 14:37:20:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Reminder: Official deadline for Class B in RWBC ends today midnight (GMT+1) geschrieben von:/posted by: Tom Likens at 28 July 2004 13:48:55:

Hi Tom!

Have you picked a name for the new beast?
Also I'm curious, what are you doing different this time around compared to
Gothmog?

So far, the rectangular version is named "Glaurung", while the hexagonal version
(which will probably be released very soon) is called "Scatha". I may still
change my mind about both names. Suggestions are welcome.
Some highlights:

Small memory requirements.
Improved piece list data structure, in order to facilitate looping through
all pieces of a given type and colour.
Attack tables replaced by small, fast functions which answer questions like
"is square x attacked by a white bishop?".
Fewer bugs.
Simpler and more easily maintainable code.
No xboard support?
Open source?

Tord

[Tord Romstad]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Tord Romstad at 28 July 2004 14:38:13:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Reminder: Official deadline for Class B in RWBC ends today midnight (GMT+1) geschrieben von:/posted by: Günther Simon at 28 July 2004 13:12:13:

Hi Günther,
Do you have any estimate of when the next Open Class will begin? I hope to
participate with an early version of my new engine.
Tord

That's a difficult question Tord, as I dont know, if and how long
my summer break will be. It depends also on the time I need for next
Qualifying. My vague guess would be in around 3-4 months?

Thanks!
Then I have plenty of time.
Tord

[Joachim Rang]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Joachim Rang at 28 July 2004 14:47:26:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Reminder: Official deadline for Class B in RWBC ends today midnight (GMT+1) geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 28 July 2004 14:37:20:

Hi Tom!

Have you picked a name for the new beast?
Also I'm curious, what are you doing different this time around compared to
Gothmog?

So far, the rectangular version is named "Glaurung", while the hexagonal version
(which will probably be released very soon) is called "Scatha". I may still
change my mind about both names. Suggestions are welcome.
Some highlights:

Small memory requirements.
Improved piece list data structure, in order to facilitate looping through
all pieces of a given type and colour.
Attack tables replaced by small, fast functions which answer questions like
"is square x attacked by a white bishop?".
Fewer bugs.
Simpler and more easily maintainable code.
No xboard support?
Open source?

Tord

yes make it open source! Than You and Fabien can compete with your ideas and show like different implementations can lead to similiar (high) playing strength .
regards Joachim

[Tom Likens]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Tom Likens at 28 July 2004 16:40:29:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Reminder: Official deadline for Class B in RWBC ends today midnight (GMT+1) geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 28 July 2004 14:37:20:

Tord,
Some comments interspersed below.

Hi Tom!

Have you picked a name for the new beast?
Also I'm curious, what are you doing different this time around compared to
Gothmog?

So far, the rectangular version is named "Glaurung", while the hexagonal version
(which will probably be released very soon) is called "Scatha". I may still
change my mind about both names. Suggestions are welcome.
Some highlights:

* Small memory requirements.
* Improved piece list data structure, in order to facilitate looping through
all pieces of a given type and colour.
* Attack tables replaced by small, fast functions which answer questions like
"is square x attacked by a white bishop?".
* Fewer bugs.
* Simpler and more easily maintainable code.
* No xboard support?
* Open source?

Tord

My guess is that this likely means no EGTB support. This will be cache
friendly (which is definitely good), but I'm guessing the reason you set this
criteria was because of your Palm ambitions (and NO, this is *not* a sexual
innuendo!)
Please, share the secret if you figure this out!! This has been one of my goals
for a while and it seems I am only *slightly* closer. [Please, cross-reference
Djinn's game against the TCB in Gabor's Swiss to see what I mean].
Would you make it UCI only (ala' Polyglot)?
I have mixed feelings about open-sourcing the engine. Djinn is so weak that
the clone issue doesn't really apply, but Gothmog (and more than likely, your
new engine) is a different matter. It wouldn't be fun to play against a
Gothmog, or son-of-Gothmog, clone. This would be especially true for new
engines.
Only my 2-cents, of course, but your previous habit of freely sharing ideas
has been a breath of fresh air. It allows the people with only a modicum
of effort to apply your ideas, and it discourages the cut-and-paste crowd.
You could always post snippets of code about relevant subjects.
regards,
--tom

[Tord Romstad]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Tord Romstad at 28 July 2004 17:24:52:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Son of Gothmog geschrieben von:/posted by: Tom Likens at 28 July 2004 16:40:29:

* Small memory requirements.
* Fewer bugs.
* No xboard support?
* Open source?

My guess is that this likely means no EGTB support.
This will be cache friendly (which is definitely good), but I'm guessing the
reason you set this criteria was because of your Palm ambitions
(and NO, this is *not* a sexual innuendo!)
Please, share the secret if you figure this out!!
This has been one of my goals
for a while and it seems I am only *slightly* closer. [Please, cross-reference
Djinn's game against the TCB in Gabor's Swiss to see what I mean].
Would you make it UCI only (ala' Polyglot)?
I have mixed feelings about open-sourcing the engine.
Djinn is so weak that
the clone issue doesn't really apply, but Gothmog (and more than likely, your
new engine) is a different matter. It wouldn't be fun to play against a
Gothmog, or son-of-Gothmog, clone. This would be especially true for new
engines.
Only my 2-cents, of course, but your previous habit of freely sharing ideas
has been a breath of fresh air. It allows the people with only a modicum
of effort to apply your ideas, and it discourages the cut-and-paste crowd.
You could always post snippets of code about relevant subjects.

Not necessarily. I just want the engine to be able to play well without
having lots of memory available. EGTB support and big hash tables are OK,
but I don't want the engine to play like a complete patzer when you take
this away.
Yes, that is at least part of the reason.

The secret is to start with a program with an astronomical number of bugs.
The number of source code lines containing a bug in Gothmog is probably
bigger than the size of my entire new program will be when it is completed.

Ouch, that one looked really painful. What happened? Did Djinn hallucinate
and think there was a mate after Qh8?
Yes, possibly.
So have I. That's the reason for my question mark.
I wonder if it would be possible to prevent this by trying to make the
playing style sufficiently unique that everybody would instantly recognize
a clone. It's probably hard to do.
Another solution I have considered is to make Scatha (the hexagonal engine)
open source, and keep Glaurung (the rectangular engine) private. This
would enable everybody to study my code and algorithms, but it would
still be non-trivial to make a competitive rectangular chess playing engine
based on my code.
Tord

[Tom Likens]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Tom Likens at 28 July 2004 17:53:17:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Son of Gothmog geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 28 July 2004 17:24:52:

[Please, cross-reference Djinn's game against the TCB in Gabor's Swiss to see
what I mean].

Ouch, that one looked really painful. What happened? Did Djinn hallucinate
and think there was a mate after Qh8?

I haven't dug into it yet, probably this weekend when I can give it some
real time. My suspicion is that Djinn saw the mate-in-10 (or 12) and
stored it (incorrectly) as a bound in the hashtable and then (again incorrectly)
assigned it to the Qh8 move, (the "MAT-500" displayed just before it exited
is a definite clue). The nasty part will be trying to recreate it, since
hash bugs are tough in that regard. At least Gabor didn't have pondering
enabled, which was a small bit of luck.
--tom

[Marcus Prewarski]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Marcus Prewarski at 28 July 2004 18:49:27:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Son of Gothmog geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 28 July 2004 17:24:52:


Tord, you have always been generous about sharing ideas but I hope you don't share the source. Another idea is to publish your ideas and aglorithms on a web page like Ed did.
-Marcus

[Luis Smith]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Luis Smith at 28 July 2004 19:01:24:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Son of Gothmog geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 28 July 2004 17:24:52:

* No xboard support?

Would you make it UCI only (ala' Polyglot)?

Yes, possibly.

I have almost zilch knowledge of programming, but I think it would be a real disappointment if Gothmog was UCI only. From what I understand if you are a good programmer (which it seems you are) it should take no more than 1 or 2 days of coding to implement it.
How hard would it be to copy/paste the existing code of Winboard II commands from Gothmog into the new engines?

[Marcus Prewarski]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Marcus Prewarski at 28 July 2004 19:12:13:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Reminder: Official deadline for Class B in RWBC ends today midnight (GMT+1) geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 28 July 2004 14:37:20:

Hi Tom!

Have you picked a name for the new beast?
Also I'm curious, what are you doing different this time around compared to
Gothmog?

So far, the rectangular version is named "Glaurung", while the hexagonal version
(which will probably be released very soon) is called "Scatha". I may still
change my mind about both names. Suggestions are welcome.
Some highlights:

Small memory requirements.
Improved piece list data structure, in order to facilitate looping through
all pieces of a given type and colour.
Attack tables replaced by small, fast functions which answer questions like
"is square x attacked by a white bishop?".
Fewer bugs.
Simpler and more easily maintainable code.
No xboard support?
Open source?

Tord

It has been a long time, but Glaurung was a dragon right?
Does this mean no MTD?
I would be curious to hear about his. Right now my engine has an 0x88 board but I use two BitBoards, one for the black pieces and one for the white pieces. I was thinking about switching to a 12x12 mailbox style board because I'm pretty sure I could make this faster and at the same time I would revisit how I managed piece lists. But this would be a lot of work so I'm not sure it will happen anytime soon. There is more I need to learn and experiment with search and move ordering before I start over.

This sounds really interesting. But it seems like there are so many things you can do with attack tables once you generate them, but then you know that better than I do. I look forward to seeing your new engine play.
-Marcus

[Peter Fendrich]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Peter Fendrich at 28 July 2004 21:01:00:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Reminder: Official deadline for Class B in RWBC ends today midnight (GMT+1) geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 28 July 2004 14:38:13:

Hi Günther,
Do you have any estimate of when the next Open Class will begin? I hope to
participate with an early version of my new engine.
Tord

That's a difficult question Tord, as I dont know, if and how long
my summer break will be. It depends also on the time I need for next
Qualifying. My vague guess would be in around 3-4 months?

Thanks!
Then I have plenty of time.
Tord

So do I...
but "plenty of time" always turns out to be "no time left"
/Peter


Terra

[Tord Romstad]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Tord Romstad at 28 July 2004 21:09:00:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Reminder: Official deadline for Class B in RWBC ends today midnight (GMT+1) geschrieben von:/posted by: Marcus Prewarski at 28 July 2004 19:12:13:

So far, the rectangular version is named "Glaurung", while the hexagonal version
(which will probably be released very soon) is called "Scatha". I may still

It has been a long time, but Glaurung was a dragon right?

Yes. And so was Scatha.
The replies to the rest of your post are probably off-topic, I will
send you an e-mail instead of continuing the discussion here.
Tord

[Heinz van Kempen]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Heinz van Kempen at 29 July 2004 04:29:06:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Son of Gothmog geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 28 July 2004 17:24:52:

Another solution I have considered is to make Scatha (the hexagonal engine)
open source, and keep Glaurung (the rectangular engine) private. This
would enable everybody to study my code and algorithms, but it would
still be non-trivial to make a competitive rectangular chess playing engine
based on my code.
Tord

Hello Tord,
I would like to get acquainted with hexagonal chess or rectangular. Will it last a long time still that you have it ready? As I wrote to you in a mail I have a lot of interest in other variations, not only in classic chess.
As you surely know The Baron will play in CCM (Chess Classic Mainz)against a GM to promote FRC a bit more. Maybe you remember that my wife is active chessplayer and comes from a known German chess family. She likes FRC and would allow me that I use her computer for an AEGT-FRC group with long timecontrols to promote FRC and starting in a few weeks. Maybe Volker Anuss the author of Hermann would also support such an additional group. I would only like real FRC under Arena with those that support real FRC (and not something with only few positions like Stefan Pohl does it). These are up to now Betsy, Hermann, Chispa, The Baron and Gothmog. What happended with Gothmog FRC? Are you still interested in that one?
Best Regards
Heinz

[Tord Romstad]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Tord Romstad at 29 July 2004 11:41:54:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Gothmog FRC geschrieben von:/posted by: Heinz van Kempen at 29 July 2004 04:29:06:

Hello Tord,
I would like to get acquainted with hexagonal chess or rectangular.
Will it last a long time still that you have it ready?
As I wrote to you in a mail I have a lot of interest in other variations, not only in classic chess.
As you surely know The Baron will play in CCM (Chess Classic Mainz)against a GM to promote FRC a bit more. Maybe you remember that my wife is active chessplayer and comes from a known German chess family. She likes FRC and would allow me that I use her computer for an AEGT-FRC group with long timecontrols to promote FRC and starting in a few weeks. Maybe Volker Anuss the author of Hermann would also support such an additional group. I would only like real FRC under Arena with those that support real FRC (and not something with only few positions like Stefan Pohl does it).
These are up to now Betsy, Hermann, Chispa, The Baron and Gothmog.
What happended with Gothmog FRC?
Are you still interested in that one?

Hello!
When I talk about "rectangular chess" I mean normal chess, which I guess you
are already fairly well acquainted with.
Scatha, the hexagonal chess engine, could be said to be ready now. The
program is able to play complete games, appears to be 100% stable, and
beats its author easily. The two main problems at the moment is that it
has the most boring and lifeless playing style ever seen in a chess playing
program, and that there still is no GUI (just a simple text-mode interface).
I can mail it to you if you are interested.
Grzegorz Sidorowicz, the author of Armageddon, has written a hexagonal chess
program called Hexodus, which includes a beautiful GUI.
There is also a Java-based program you can play against on the
Web. This is extremely weak (Scatha beats it easily even when I reduce
its thinking time to 10 seconds/game), but could still be used to learn
the rules of the game.
I am 99% sure that Frenzee supports real FRC as well.
Nothing. It's still well and alive. I was just too lazy to compile a
new executable for inclusion in the Gothmog 1.0 beta 10 download (there
is a FRC executable there, but it's stil 1.0 beta 7). Of course, there
will be a FRC executable delivered with the final 1.0 version.
I am not a big FRC fan, but an FRC tournament would still be interesting
to see.
Tord

[Heinz van Kempen]

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Heinz van Kempen at 29 July 2004 12:48:01:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Gothmog FRC geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 29 July 2004 11:41:54:

Hello Tord,
I would like to get acquainted with hexagonal chess or rectangular.
Will it last a long time still that you have it ready?
As I wrote to you in a mail I have a lot of interest in other variations, not only in classic chess.
As you surely know The Baron will play in CCM (Chess Classic Mainz)against a GM to promote FRC a bit more. Maybe you remember that my wife is active chessplayer and comes from a known German chess family. She likes FRC and would allow me that I use her computer for an AEGT-FRC group with long timecontrols to promote FRC and starting in a few weeks. Maybe Volker Anuss the author of Hermann would also support such an additional group. I would only like real FRC under Arena with those that support real FRC (and not something with only few positions like Stefan Pohl does it).
These are up to now Betsy, Hermann, Chispa, The Baron and Gothmog.
What happended with Gothmog FRC?
Are you still interested in that one?

Hello!
When I talk about "rectangular chess" I mean normal chess, which I guess you
are already fairly well acquainted with.
Scatha, the hexagonal chess engine, could be said to be ready now. The
program is able to play complete games, appears to be 100% stable, and
beats its author easily. The two main problems at the moment is that it
has the most boring and lifeless playing style ever seen in a chess playing
program, and that there still is no GUI (just a simple text-mode interface).
I can mail it to you if you are interested.
Grzegorz Sidorowicz, the author of Armageddon, has written a hexagonal chess
program called Hexodus, which includes a beautiful GUI.
There is also a Java-based program you can play against on the
Web. This is extremely weak (Scatha beats it easily even when I reduce
its thinking time to 10 seconds/game), but could still be used to learn
the rules of the game.
I am 99% sure that Frenzee supports real FRC as well.
Nothing. It's still well and alive. I was just too lazy to compile a
new executable for inclusion in the Gothmog 1.0 beta 10 download (there
is a FRC executable there, but it's stil 1.0 beta 7). Of course, there
will be a FRC executable delivered with the final 1.0 version.
I am not a big FRC fan, but an FRC tournament would still be interesting
to see.
Tord

Hello Tord,
concerning Scatha a GUI would be fine. I am not a programmer and so do not know how much work this would imply.
I always wondered why there are relatively few people interested in other kinds of chess or similar games. One reason maybe is that classical chess has a long history, there is a lot of literature and by that is so popular in the western world. (The most played with estimated 500 millon player over the whole world by the way is Chinese Chess or Xiang Qi, where some pieces have unique moves and that also has evolved from the Indian game Chaturanga. And there is also Shogi (SHOW GEE) the Japanese form of chess where each player is able to drop captured enemy pieces back on the board as his own and most pieces remain in play for the entire game making for much deeper play and where also most pieces can be promoted.)
So for the popular games it is easier to find opponents, clubs etc.. A second reason might be that classical chess already is so beautiful and complicated that people think that there is simply no need of something even more complicated for themselves (chess of course is easy to learn, but when you immerge deeper it becomes very complex and many players are getting addicted to it like to a drug).
Concerning FRC I think it is also fascinating. Games tend to be more complex and often there is quickly tactital skirmish. Yes, of course I forgot Frenzee, sorry for that Sune. Fine that Gothmog UCI is still alive. I will try to find two or three people who want to run such an real FRC tournament with long timecontrol together with me. Might last a bit, the other tournaments are only just beginning and I want them more advanced before starting something additionally.
Best Regards
Heinz