Winboard Forum

by **Tord Romstad** » 30 Jul 2004, 15:14

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Tord Romstad at 30 July 2004 16:14:59:

I think that Glaurung, my new engine, will soon be ready for release (but
don't get too excited, the first version will be hundreds of rating points
weaker than Gothmog).
Right now, I am considering whether I should release the source code of the
new engine (probably under the GPL license). In principle I would prefer the
engine to be open-source, but the problem of clones makes the decision a bit
problematic.
In another recent thread, Joachim Rang liked the idea of open source, Marcus
Prewarski opposed it, and Tom Likens had mixed feelings about it. What do the
rest of you think?
I hope this question is not considered off-topic in this forum. I first
intended to post this question to the CCC, but after some thought I decided
that the problem of clones is probably a bigger concern for readers of this
forum than for the CCC crowd.
Tord

by **Dan Honeycutt** » 30 Jul 2004, 15:59

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Dan Honeycutt at 30 July 2004 16:59:16:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Open source or not? Opinions wanted geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 30 July 2004 16:14:59:

I think that Glaurung, my new engine, will soon be ready for release (but
don't get too excited, the first version will be hundreds of rating points
weaker than Gothmog).
Right now, I am considering whether I should release the source code of the
new engine (probably under the GPL license). In principle I would prefer the
engine to be open-source, but the problem of clones makes the decision a bit
problematic.
In another recent thread, Joachim Rang liked the idea of open source, Marcus
Prewarski opposed it, and Tom Likens had mixed feelings about it. What do the
rest of you think?
I hope this question is not considered off-topic in this forum. I first
intended to post this question to the CCC, but after some thought I decided
that the problem of clones is probably a bigger concern for readers of this
forum than for the CCC crowd.
Tord

I favor open source.
Once I figured out the workings of rotated bitboards I took the trouble to extensively comment my code in the hope it would be useful to someone else. To date I've had one person write me and tell me that thanks to my code they were also able to understand bitboards. Helping just one person I felt made the effort worthwhile. I have learned a lot looking at the source of other programs, I feel I have a debt to others.
If someone wants to clone something there are a lot of engines stronger than mine - Crafty, Phalanx, Fruit, Pepito etc. Should my engine improve to the point where someone might want to clone it I'll do something - probably an embedded signature that would be extremely difficult to find unless someone were intimately familiar with the code.
Dan H.

by **Will Singleton** » 30 Jul 2004, 16:22

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Will Singleton at 30 July 2004 17:22:58:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Open source or not? Opinions wanted geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 30 July 2004 16:14:59:

I think that Glaurung, my new engine, will soon be ready for release (but
don't get too excited, the first version will be hundreds of rating points
weaker than Gothmog).
Right now, I am considering whether I should release the source code of the
new engine (probably under the GPL license). In principle I would prefer the
engine to be open-source, but the problem of clones makes the decision a bit
problematic.
In another recent thread, Joachim Rang liked the idea of open source, Marcus
Prewarski opposed it, and Tom Likens had mixed feelings about it. What do the
rest of you think?
I hope this question is not considered off-topic in this forum. I first
intended to post this question to the CCC, but after some thought I decided
that the problem of clones is probably a bigger concern for readers of this
forum than for the CCC crowd.
Tord

People do open source for different reasons. What would be your motivation for doing so?
Given the many strong open-source programs out there, would yours have some innovations that might prove useful? If so, why not just explain them, rather than showing the actual code? At least make people do a little thinking, rather than cut and paste.
Will

by **Tord Romstad** » 30 Jul 2004, 18:07

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Tord Romstad at 30 July 2004 19:07:56:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Open source or not? Opinions wanted geschrieben von:/posted by: Will Singleton at 30 July 2004 17:22:58:

People do open source for different reasons. What would be your motivation for doing so?
Given the many strong open-source programs out there, would yours have some innovations that might prove useful?
If so, why not just explain them, rather than showing the actual code? At least make people do a little thinking, rather than cut and paste.

I would rather reverse the question: Why not open source? The only sensible
reasons I can see are:
1. Fear of clones.
2. The code is so ugly that reading it implies a serious danger to the mental
health of an innocent reader.
These are the only possible negative effects I can imagine of releasing
an engine as open source. The positive effects are much more numerous.
A few of the more important are that it greatly facilitates explanation
and discussion of how the engine works, that it gives users the possibility
to fix bugs, add new features and experiment with different search and
eval settings, and that I would never again need to compile a Windows
executable.
The last factor is a very important one. The most annoying thing about
closed-source engines is that there is no way for me to port them to
the OS I use (Mac OS X). If almost all the amateur authors didn't
stubbornly refuse to release their engines with full source code, I
would have 10 times as many engines to test against.
Nearly all programs do, and I hope mine will not be an exception. Besides,
I don't agree that there are many strong open-source programs out there.
Considering the total number of free engines, the number of open-source
engines is remarkably low (especially among the strongest engines).
Showing the actual code is much less work. And it is not unusual that an idea
is difficult to explain without the context of the rest of the source code. Cut
and paste without thinking will not work anyway. When was the last time you saw
a non-trivial piece of code which could be copied to your program without doing
any changes?
Tord

by **Marcus Prewarski** » 30 Jul 2004, 18:49

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Marcus Prewarski at 30 July 2004 19:49:25:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Open source or not? Opinions wanted geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 30 July 2004 19:07:56:

The last factor is a very important one. The most annoying thing about
closed-source engines is that there is no way for me to port them to
the OS I use (Mac OS X). If almost all the amateur authors didn't
stubbornly refuse to release their engines with full source code, I
would have 10 times as many engines to test against.
And it is not unusual that an idea
is difficult to explain without the context of the rest of the source code. Cut
and paste without thinking will not work anyway. When was the last time you saw
a non-trivial piece of code which could be copied to your program without doing
any changes?
Tord

The reason I don't want to release my source is immodesty: I don't want people to see the crap I've written. Also I think there would be very little if any interest. But I try to make up for this by providing a Linux version for the one or two people that actually download it.
True. And believe me I would be one of the people that dowloaded and examined the source. I think Gothmog is such a strong and interesting engine it would attract a lot of interest and not all of it good. And if your new engine is much more compact and simple to understand the interest would increase. I think part of the rewards in making ones engine play better is the struggle to get there. I'm sure you will make the right choice whatever it is.
-Marcus

by **Pallav Nawani** » 30 Jul 2004, 18:58

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Pallav Nawani at 30 July 2004 19:58:21:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Open source or not? Opinions wanted geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 30 July 2004 16:14:59:

I think that Glaurung, my new engine, will soon be ready for release (but
don't get too excited, the first version will be hundreds of rating points
weaker than Gothmog).
Right now, I am considering whether I should release the source code of the
new engine (probably under the GPL license). In principle I would prefer the
engine to be open-source, but the problem of clones makes the decision a bit
problematic.
In another recent thread, Joachim Rang liked the idea of open source, Marcus
Prewarski opposed it, and Tom Likens had mixed feelings about it. What do the
rest of you think?
I hope this question is not considered off-topic in this forum. I first
intended to post this question to the CCC, but after some thought I decided
that the problem of clones is probably a bigger concern for readers of this
forum than for the CCC crowd.
Tord

I would love to see your engine open source, of course. But if you are doubtful about doing that, there is another option: You could open source gothmog instead, and see how it goes. If you see too many clones/rip offs, you can continue Glaurung as closed source, If you see any benefit, you could then open source your new engine.
Pallav

Natwarlal

by **Dann Corbit** » 30 Jul 2004, 19:52

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Dann Corbit at 30 July 2004 20:52:20:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Open source or not? Opinions wanted geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 30 July 2004 16:14:59:

I think that Glaurung, my new engine, will soon be ready for release (but
don't get too excited, the first version will be hundreds of rating points
weaker than Gothmog).
Right now, I am considering whether I should release the source code of the
new engine (probably under the GPL license). In principle I would prefer the
engine to be open-source, but the problem of clones makes the decision a bit
problematic.
In another recent thread, Joachim Rang liked the idea of open source, Marcus
Prewarski opposed it, and Tom Likens had mixed feelings about it. What do the
rest of you think?
I hope this question is not considered off-topic in this forum. I first
intended to post this question to the CCC, but after some thought I decided
that the problem of clones is probably a bigger concern for readers of this
forum than for the CCC crowd.

My opinion:
Do the thing that makes you the most happy.
Some people will copy from your code. Some may even tweak a few things and say they invented it. Some may take your code, make some small improvements, and violate the GPL license and keep them for themselves. To me, these people are small and petty and their moment is the sun is a hollow forgery. I think this is the thing to consider about not doing open source. If you can live with the knuckleheads, and still enjoy it, then I think you should make it open source. If that sort of thing will drive you up the wall, then you should not.
I think it may also be a very good idea to spell out carefully any conditions for use (if you have conditions besides pure GPL use).
I enjoy open source programs more than closed source. But I think I am in a minority. For most people, they just use the engines and never consider looking at the source.
So my bottom line is:
"Do what you want to do to maximize your own happiness."
Your benefits will mostly be hidden from your eyes if you do go to open source, and I think most contributions to help your program will not help much. I have helped a lot of programmers in the early stages of development, but eventually the engine becomes complex enough that my suggestions are not of great value. If you look at projects like Sjeng and Faile on the Sourceforge, you will see that contributions to the projects are basically non-existant. So don't expect any big help from the outside except by some fluke of probability.
There will be a lot of people like me who would read your code and admire it greatly. Probably, most of the time, they won't even sent you a note to tell you how much they enjoyed it.
To me, publishing your code is a lot like publishing a paper. Some nitwits will paugerize both, and some good people will benefit from both.
I guess that you have some very good ideas in your code, since your programs do so well. It would be too bad if you took them to the grave some day and nobody ever saw it. But eventually, every idea will be uncovered whether you show them or not. If Newton and Leibnitz and Pascal had never did a thing about the calculus, someone else would have come up with it.

my ftp site {remove http:// unless you like error messages}

by **Dann Corbit** » 30 Jul 2004, 19:56

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Dann Corbit at 30 July 2004 20:56:58:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Open source or not? Opinions wanted geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 30 July 2004 19:07:56:

People do open source for different reasons. What would be your motivation for doing so?
Given the many strong open-source programs out there, would yours have some innovations that might prove useful?
If so, why not just explain them, rather than showing the actual code? At least make people do a little thinking, rather than cut and paste.
I would rather reverse the question: Why not open source? The only sensible
reasons I can see are:
1. Fear of clones.
2. The code is so ugly that reading it implies a serious danger to the mental
health of an innocent reader.
These are the only possible negative effects I can imagine of releasing
an engine as open source. The positive effects are much more numerous.
A few of the more important are that it greatly facilitates explanation
and discussion of how the engine works, that it gives users the possibility
to fix bugs, add new features and experiment with different search and
eval settings, and that I would never again need to compile a Windows
executable.
The last factor is a very important one. The most annoying thing about
closed-source engines is that there is no way for me to port them to
the OS I use (Mac OS X). If almost all the amateur authors didn't
stubbornly refuse to release their engines with full source code, I
would have 10 times as many engines to test against.
Nearly all programs do, and I hope mine will not be an exception. Besides,
I don't agree that there are many strong open-source programs out there.
Considering the total number of free engines, the number of open-source
engines is remarkably low (especially among the strongest engines).
Showing the actual code is much less work. And it is not unusual that an idea
is difficult to explain without the context of the rest of the source code. Cut
and paste without thinking will not work anyway. When was the last time you saw
a non-trivial piece of code which could be copied to your program without doing
any changes?
Tord

From:
http://wbec-ridderkerk.nl/

1 1 The King 3.23 * 2722 26 132
2 1 Ruffian 2.1.0 * 2710 19 368
3 -2 DeepSjeng 1.6 * 2699 -35 300
4 1 Aristarch 4.41 2661 19 446
5 6 Crafty 19.12 2634 38 480 OPEN SOURCE
6 -2 Gandalf 4.32h * 2626 -24 404
7 1 SmarThink 0.18a-r119 2613 -10 579
8 1 WARP 0.58 ** 2611 -4 316
9 -3 Little Goliath 3.9 po 2610 -17 444
10 8 Tao 5.6 2577 47 362
11 -1 GreenLightChess 3.00 2564 -50 548
12 9 Pharaon 2.62 2562 50 520
13 -1 Yace Paderborn 2558 -24 572
14 0 Quark 2.35Paderborn 2556 9 496
15 20 Thinker 4.5a 2555 94 378
16 1 Ktulu 4.2 2552 21 136
17 -4 Zarkov 4.67 ** 2551 -27 424
18 -2 Nejmet 3.07 2550 15 592
19 3 Amyan 1.593b 2547 36 464
20 130 El Chinito 3.3 2537 0 88
21 42 Maestro 1.06uci 2526 0 68
22 -7 Dragon 4.6b 2520 -25 596
23 10 Abrok 5.0 2512 48 358
24 0 Delfi 4.4 2506 3 458
25 -2 Comet B.68 2502 -4 536
26 0 Pepito 1.59 2502 12 504 OPEN SOURCE

I would say that there are two open source strong engines, with crafty far and away the strongest.

my ftp site {remove http:// unless you like error messages}

by **Dann Corbit** » 30 Jul 2004, 19:59

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Dann Corbit at 30 July 2004 20:59:24:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Open source or not? Opinions wanted geschrieben von:/posted by: Marcus Prewarski at 30 July 2004 19:49:25:

The last factor is a very important one. The most annoying thing about
closed-source engines is that there is no way for me to port them to
the OS I use (Mac OS X). If almost all the amateur authors didn't
stubbornly refuse to release their engines with full source code, I
would have 10 times as many engines to test against.
And it is not unusual that an idea
is difficult to explain without the context of the rest of the source code. Cut
and paste without thinking will not work anyway. When was the last time you saw
a non-trivial piece of code which could be copied to your program without doing
any changes?
Tord
The reason I don't want to release my source is immodesty: I don't want people to see the crap I've written. Also I think there would be very little if any interest. But I try to make up for this by providing a Linux version for the one or two people that actually download it.
True. And believe me I would be one of the people that dowloaded and examined the source. I think Gothmog is such a strong and interesting engine it would attract a lot of interest and not all of it good. And if your new engine is much more compact and simple to understand the interest would increase. I think part of the rewards in making ones engine play better is the struggle to get there. I'm sure you will make the right choice whatever it is.
-Marcus

I learn something from every source program I read. But to deliver source or not should be totally up to the author (unless he is bound by the GPL or something).

my ftp site {remove http:// unless you like error messages}

by **Will Singleton** » 30 Jul 2004, 20:48

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Will Singleton at 30 July 2004 21:48:49:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Open source or not? Opinions wanted geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 30 July 2004 19:07:56:

People do open source for different reasons. What would be your motivation for doing so?
I would rather reverse the question: Why not open source? The only sensible
reasons I can see are:
1. Fear of clones.
2. The code is so ugly that reading it implies a serious danger to the mental
health of an innocent reader.
These are the only possible negative effects I can imagine of releasing
an engine as open source. The positive effects are much more numerous.
A few of the more important are that it greatly facilitates explanation
and discussion of how the engine works, that it gives users the possibility
to fix bugs, add new features and experiment with different search and
eval settings, and that I would never again need to compile a Windows
executable.

Ok, you list three position results from open-source. Looking at a source can improve understanding for the reader, but it just as often can obscure understanding. That's why pseudo-code is used in textbooks. The idea is the thing, not the implementation. The second consideration is really moot, since it occurs infrequently. The third is not serious. Weighed against the corrosive effects of giving people things for free, it's not enough.
But it sounds like you've already made up your mind, so why pose the question? That's why I was curious about your motivation. It's natural to want people to see and appreciate one's work, and of course you must be proud of it. Nothing wrong with that, unless you count that pesky clone situation.
Will

by **Uri Blass** » 30 Jul 2004, 21:20

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Uri Blass at 30 July 2004 22:20:47:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Open source or not? Opinions wanted geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 30 July 2004 19:07:56:

People do open source for different reasons. What would be your motivation for doing so?
I would rather reverse the question: Why not open source? The only sensible
reasons I can see are:
1. Fear of clones.
2. The code is so ugly that reading it implies a serious danger to the mental
health of an innocent reader.
These are the only possible negative effects I can imagine of releasing
an engine as open source. The positive effects are much more numerous.
A few of the more important are that it greatly facilitates explanation
and discussion of how the engine works, that it gives users the possibility
to fix bugs, add new features and experiment with different search and
eval settings, and that I would never again need to compile a Windows
executable.
The last factor is a very important one. The most annoying thing about
closed-source engines is that there is no way for me to port them to
the OS I use (Mac OS X).

Is it easy for you to port engines with open source to Mac OS X?
Maybe some authors of not free source code will agree to send you their source code if you do the work of porting them to Mac OS so they can later release also a version for Mac OS X.
Uri

by **Matthias Gemuh** » 30 Jul 2004, 21:58

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Matthias Gemuh at 30 July 2004 22:58:06:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Open source or not? Opinions wanted geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 30 July 2004 16:14:59:

I think that Glaurung, my new engine, will soon be ready for release (but
don't get too excited, the first version will be hundreds of rating points
weaker than Gothmog).
Right now, I am considering whether I should release the source code of the
new engine (probably under the GPL license). In principle I would prefer the
engine to be open-source, but the problem of clones makes the decision a bit
problematic.
In another recent thread, Joachim Rang liked the idea of open source, Marcus
Prewarski opposed it, and Tom Likens had mixed feelings about it. What do the
rest of you think?
I hope this question is not considered off-topic in this forum. I first
intended to post this question to the CCC, but after some thought I decided
that the problem of clones is probably a bigger concern for readers of this
forum than for the CCC crowd.
Tord

My opinion is strange !
As a programmer, I would like to have the source code in my archive.
However, I am against open source because of clones.
BTW, if I want to clone some engine, the most likely candidate would be
Amy because its attack info is bitboard "AttacksFrom[64]" and "AttacksTo[64]"
(like I use in BigLion).
Best,
Matthias.

BigLion + Taktix

by **Joachim Rang** » 30 Jul 2004, 23:02

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Joachim Rang at 31 July 2004 00:02:02:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Open source or not? Opinions wanted geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 30 July 2004 16:14:59:

I think that Glaurung, my new engine, will soon be ready for release (but
don't get too excited, the first version will be hundreds of rating points
weaker than Gothmog).
Right now, I am considering whether I should release the source code of the
new engine (probably under the GPL license). In principle I would prefer the
engine to be open-source, but the problem of clones makes the decision a bit
problematic.
In another recent thread, Joachim Rang liked the idea of open source, Marcus
Prewarski opposed it, and Tom Likens had mixed feelings about it. What do the
rest of you think?
I hope this question is not considered off-topic in this forum. I first
intended to post this question to the CCC, but after some thought I decided
that the problem of clones is probably a bigger concern for readers of this
forum than for the CCC crowd.
Tord

Hi Tord,
so far most cloning attempts where discovered and punished sooner or later. If an engine is weak there will be no interest to clone it, if it is strong (and hence the clone) the suspicions and tests will thorough and the clone will sooner or later be identified. I think the benefit of open source as a catalysator for interesting discussions new ideas etc. outweighs the risk to identify and ban possible clones.
regards Joachim

by **Uri Blass** » 31 Jul 2004, 00:16

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Uri Blass at 31 July 2004 01:16:43:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Open source or not? Opinions wanted geschrieben von:/posted by: Joachim Rang at 31 July 2004 00:02:02:

I think that Glaurung, my new engine, will soon be ready for release (but
don't get too excited, the first version will be hundreds of rating points
weaker than Gothmog).
Right now, I am considering whether I should release the source code of the
new engine (probably under the GPL license). In principle I would prefer the
engine to be open-source, but the problem of clones makes the decision a bit
problematic.
In another recent thread, Joachim Rang liked the idea of open source, Marcus
Prewarski opposed it, and Tom Likens had mixed feelings about it. What do the
rest of you think?
I hope this question is not considered off-topic in this forum. I first
intended to post this question to the CCC, but after some thought I decided
that the problem of clones is probably a bigger concern for readers of this
forum than for the CCC crowd.
Tord
Hi Tord,
so far most cloning attempts where discovered and punished sooner or later.
If an engine is weak there will be no interest to clone it
, if it is strong (and hence the clone) the suspicions and tests will thorough >and the clone will sooner or later be identified.

How do you know?
You only know about cloning attempted that were punished and you do not know about cloning attempts that nobody detected.

Wrong
People cloned even engines like tscp.

I suspect that there is a good chance that it is not going to be detected if the cloner is smart enough to change the code and it is possible that many programs are clones and we simply do not know.
Remember that clones do not have to have the same evaluation or the same search and by changing 10% of the source code you can get a version that play different moves and may be slightly weaker but not more than 50 elo weaker.
A clone can also be stronger than the original program and it is possible that part of the free programs that are stronger than Crafty are Crafty clones.
Remember that List was suspected that it has parts of Crafty and was banned
and without cooperation of the programmer it is impossible to check if it is a clone or not a clone.
Uri

by **Jose Carlos** » 31 Jul 2004, 00:27

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Jose Carlos at 31 July 2004 01:27:21:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Open source or not? Opinions wanted geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 30 July 2004 16:14:59:

I think that Glaurung, my new engine, will soon be ready for release (but
don't get too excited, the first version will be hundreds of rating points
weaker than Gothmog).
Right now, I am considering whether I should release the source code of the
new engine (probably under the GPL license). In principle I would prefer the
engine to be open-source, but the problem of clones makes the decision a bit
problematic.
In another recent thread, Joachim Rang liked the idea of open source, Marcus
Prewarski opposed it, and Tom Likens had mixed feelings about it. What do the
rest of you think?
I hope this question is not considered off-topic in this forum. I first
intended to post this question to the CCC, but after some thought I decided
that the problem of clones is probably a bigger concern for readers of this
forum than for the CCC crowd.
Tord

Hi Tord.
If you release your source code, I'll surely read it with great pleasure. I've read most other open source programs and I enjoy admiring good programmers abilities.
However, I believe that open source in a competitive field like chess programming is very much like leaving the door of home open and going on vacation for a week. It's still forbidden to enter and steal, but it looks like an invitation for thieves. You can still count on the police, but not many families have the same idea.
In my opinion, open source is ok for specific algorithms (like sorting an array or traversing a B-Tree), for non competitive fields (like SETI program) and for fields where open source is well stablished.
In my humble opinion, open source in chess programming is not a good idea; it's much better to explain ideas and use pseudocode at most.
Just my 2 cents.
José C.

by **Uri Blass** » 31 Jul 2004, 08:29

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Uri Blass at 31 July 2004 09:29:19:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Open source or not? Opinions wanted geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 30 July 2004 16:14:59:

I think that Glaurung, my new engine, will soon be ready for release (but
don't get too excited, the first version will be hundreds of rating points
weaker than Gothmog).
Right now, I am considering whether I should release the source code of the
new engine (probably under the GPL license). In principle I would prefer the
engine to be open-source, but the problem of clones makes the decision a bit
problematic.
In another recent thread, Joachim Rang liked the idea of open source, Marcus
Prewarski opposed it, and Tom Likens had mixed feelings about it. What do the
rest of you think?
I hope this question is not considered off-topic in this forum. I first
intended to post this question to the CCC, but after some thought I decided
that the problem of clones is probably a bigger concern for readers of this
forum than for the CCC crowd.
Tord

What about the idea of selling the source?
If 100 programmers pay 50$ for the source then you can earn 5000$ from it and also help other programmers.
If there are no 100 programmers that want to pay 50$ for the source then there is no big interest in it and it may be better to work more on the program in order to generate more interest in the source in the future.
For some reason I do not know of a single case when programmers sell their source to other programmers.
Is there a legal problem with it?
A possible problem is that a buyer may buy the source and earn money by selling it to some friends for a lower price but the fact that a buyer may do something illegal(against the agreement of not showing the source to other people) is not a logical reason to forbid selling the source and the programmer may be careful and sell the source only if at least 100 people buy it in the same day.

Uri

by **Tord Romstad** » 31 Jul 2004, 13:52

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Tord Romstad at 31 July 2004 14:52:39:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Open source or not? Opinions wanted geschrieben von:/posted by: Dann Corbit at 30 July 2004 20:59:24:

Marcus wrote:

The reason I don't want to release my source is immodesty: I don't want people to see the crap
I've written.
Also I think there would be very little if any interest. But I try to make up for this by providing
a Linux version for the one or two people that actually download it.
True. And believe me I would be one of the people that dowloaded and examined the source.
I think Gothmog is such a strong and interesting engine it would attract a lot of interest and
not all of it good.
I learn something from every source program I read. But to deliver source or not should be
totally up to the author (unless he is bound by the GPL or something).

I know what you mean. That's precisely the reason I don't want to make Gothmog's source
code public. It would just be too embarassing.
Yeah, and as you know, I am one of those people who are very happy for this! :-)

Dann wrote:
Yes, of course.
Marcus again:
I'm not sure. Fruit is stronger than Gothmog and has attracted a lot of interest, but as far as
I can see most of it seems to be good. Fabien is welcome to correct me if I am wrong.
Tord

by **Tord Romstad** » 31 Jul 2004, 14:16

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Tord Romstad at 31 July 2004 15:16:35:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Open source or not? Opinions wanted geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 30 July 2004 16:14:59:

Hi everybody,
Thanks for your replies so far! Instead of replying to all the numerous posts in this
thread individually, I will respond to several of you in this message:
Dann: Thanks a lot for your nice and long reply. Even if I decide to keep my source code
private, I will certainly send it to you and let you compile a Windows binary (if you are
willing to do so, of course).
Will: Actually, I haven't made up my mind at all yet.
Pallav: Releasing Gothmog as open source is unfortunately out of the question. It is just
too ugly, as explained elsewhere in the thread. The new program will be much better in
this respect.
José: I understand your points, but from my point of view chess programming isn't a
competitive field at all. I prefer to view the field more like a science, and if I could do
something that could help *all* engines improve by 20 Elo points it would make me
much more happy than if I managed to improve only my own engine by 200 Elo points.
Dann is right that calculus would have been invented even without Newton and
Leibniz, but I think that progress for the field as a whole is always much faster when
people are willing to share their ideas.
Uri: It seems that you have misunderstood something. I have no intention of *selling*
my source code for money, I am just considering to give it away for free along with my
engine.
Tord

by **Tord Romstad** » 31 Jul 2004, 14:22

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Tord Romstad at 31 July 2004 15:22:28:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Open source or not? Opinions wanted geschrieben von:/posted by: Uri Blass at 30 July 2004 22:20:47:

The last factor is a very important one. The most annoying thing about
closed-source engines is that there is no way for me to port them to
the OS I use (Mac OS X).

Is it easy for you to port engines with open source to Mac OS X?
Maybe some authors of not free source code will agree to send you their source code if you do the work of porting them to Mac OS so they can later release also a version for Mac OS X.

It depends a lot on the engine, I guess, but I think most programs which do not
make heavy use of assembly language would be relatively easy to port. I have
ported one strong and well-known non-open-source engine, and I think the
whole process consumed something like 2-3 hours of work. (This Mac version
is not yet available to the public, and if some among you have guesses or
speculations about which engine it is I will have to ask you to keep your guesses
to yourselves).
Maybe they would, but I don't think I am the right person for such a task. It would be
better if some more "neutral" person (some kind of Mac equivalent of Dann Corbit)
could do the job.
Tord

by **Uri Blass** » 31 Jul 2004, 16:51

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Uri Blass at 31 July 2004 17:51:05:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Open source or not? Opinions wanted geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 31 July 2004 15:16:35:

Hi everybody,
Thanks for your replies so far! Instead of replying to all the numerous posts in this
thread individually, I will respond to several of you in this message:
Dann: Thanks a lot for your nice and long reply. Even if I decide to keep my source code
private, I will certainly send it to you and let you compile a Windows binary (if you are
willing to do so, of course).
Will: Actually, I haven't made up my mind at all yet.
Pallav: Releasing Gothmog as open source is unfortunately out of the question. It is just
too ugly, as explained elsewhere in the thread. The new program will be much better in
this respect.
José: I understand your points, but from my point of view chess programming isn't a
competitive field at all. I prefer to view the field more like a science, and if I could do
something that could help *all* engines improve by 20 Elo points it would make me
much more happy than if I managed to improve only my own engine by 200 Elo points.
Dann is right that calculus would have been invented even without Newton and
Leibniz, but I think that progress for the field as a whole is always much faster when
people are willing to share their ideas.
Uri: It seems that you have misunderstood something. I have no intention of *selling*
my source code for money, I am just considering to give it away for free along with my
engine.
Tord

I understood that you think to give your source code away for free but I doubt if it is the best idea to help other to get progress because people may decide to leave the field if they do not want to compete with clones.
It is possible that selling the source code may encourage more programmers because in that case the risk of clones is smaller and you can control the people you sell the source code to them and not sell to everybody who ask.
Another possibility is to send the source code only to a small team of programmers that you decide to trust them not to give it to other people(I think that you can trust programmers of the top commercial programs in case that they have interest in it or programmers of Fruit or Crafty or Yace or GreenLight or BigLion or Isichess in case that they have interest in it (there are more programmers that you can probably trust like Jos Carlos but be careful not to do the list too long because if the probability that you are right is 99% for every programmer then a list of 100 programmers has a big probability to give clones)
Uri

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